Sebastian Schaffer - Business as a Catalyst for Personal Growth

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Welcome to the Real People Real Business Show.My name is Stephanie Hayes, and I'm a business strategist who helps experience business owners design asset-based business models that set them up for growth and exit.I love to speak with like-minded entrepreneurs to share their real stories and the gritty details on how they've navigated their own way through.On this show, you won't hear about the glamorized entrepreneurship journeys that you see online, and you will be told how to make six.Figures in six weeks.Instead, you can expect to hear real vulnerable and inspiring stories that you can relate to that have helped create the foundation for each of our guests businesses.Today, I'm so excited to welcome Sebastian Schaffer.Sebastian started in the marketing department in the gaming industry with a focus on the intersection of marketing and technology.Then he founded two startups, both,both of which failed, but were remarkable learning experiences.Sebastian finally co-founded Dofollow IO a PR, a premium link building agency in late 2017 as a side project.He grew that side project from zero to seven figures in four years, growing the team from just the two founders to 12 core members, plus a bunch of support and service providers since.Welcome to the show, Sebastian,and thanks so much for taking the time to share your story today.Yeah, thanks for having me.So two field startups, gaming industry.Give me the story.How did you get to where you are right now?Yeah, it's a long story.I'll try to make you concise.First of all, I'm not the typical entrepreneur, right?I didn't sell lemonade when I was 14 and made a ton of money and had the first million at 20.What you hear so often, it's,I had a very traditional path.I had normal jobs for the first six years of my professional journey.I worked in gaming, like you mentioned mostly in, in marketing and tech.And then my best friend then convinced me to join his startups and become a co-founder.And that made me move to Berlin,the, the capital here in, in Germany which is also the, the tech hub.To start really my, my entrepreneurial journey around the age of 30.So it's like the first baby steps I took.And like you mentioned, both of those endeavors were complete failures.Which.Looking back now, I probably learned a lot from back then.It was less enjoyable and quite painful going through that process.But I, I think the main thing I learned from, from that, first of all, it's,it's always a growth experience.You will grow as a person.You will grow with your challenges that you face.But I learned how important it's to have clarity in terms of where you want to go and what problem you are solving.For both startups, we didn't have that clarity.We were really innocent and we had big dreams, but really no idea of how to build a product for people that actually needed and how to solve a problem.And we burned a lot of money that we raised from investors without ever producing a product that I would call a product.That led to a lot of frustration.I think from there I learned I never wanna raise money again.So with the current business I'm running,we, we are completely bootstrapped.I learned that.I don't like to be responsible to, to anyone else.I don't wanna have investors who might set different incentives compared to what I want to do with the business.So, yeah, a lot of, a lot of learnings out of those painful days, but I'm quite happy now looking back that I went through that journey and yeah,stumbled a few times before now hopefully to having a better ending to that story with the current business.I think it's a, this is gonna sound terrible.I think it's a little bit like marriages, right?You have your starter marriage where you sort of figure yourself out and you, you think it's gonna be forever,and then you start to realize that you grow as people and you change,and you learn a lot about yourselves,and then the next time, hopefully you do it, if you do it again, you know?Yeah.You know a little bit more about.You know, what you're looking for and what you're trying to do.And I, I, I wanna dive in a little bit on your decision not to take funding and not to raise money.We talked to a lot of people on this show who have had exits and who have you know, who have gone through that process and who do it again.And I know with our business, we actually made a conscious decision not to go for money and not to go for funding and to continue to bootstrap.And I think that there's, you know, there's advantages to both,but I know that raising money is just a, is like a really, really,Tedious and onerous activity.So can you talk a little bit about that decision and kind of your experiences with getting funding and you know, how you got around that and how you kept the, the cash flowing so that you could bootstrap.Sure.So maybe first about my previous experience raising money and why I don't like it.Obviously, my story's a bit biased.I never had a very positive story of raising money and,and building a business.I think what I learned from this is that it, it can set the wrong incentives.There is a time and place for raising money if that's, if it's a business model where that makes sense.Sometimes you have to raise very early on because you have a cash heavy product that you need to produce, for instance,or a lot of research you need to do.But if you don't have to, I personally love the freedom that you have in the early days to really build a product and look for product market fit.Instead of being incentivized maybe too early to, to grow, to run experiments, to focus on cashflow,focus on revenue too early.Sometimes you can make revenue, but that's not good for the product.So if you can, and that is a big, if not everyone is in that situation.I would go with a more bootstrapped approach until you can really be sure,okay, we have a product and then you can still decide to, to raise and,but then invest money into growth and you have a good place to put it.Sometimes when you just starting out and you raise, you don't know where to put the, what to do with the money and how to invest it effectively.So, and to the second part of your question, how we managed to bootstrap in the early days.I think that is mainly due to our business model.We are a service-based business.That means we are quite cashflow heavy.I mean, we can produce cashflow from the first client and that made it quite easy to, to then bootstrap and we,we've always wanted to keep it that way.So we invested heavily in automation and processes to reduce overhead.So we, we really hired very slowly.But try to compensate with technology and automation to, to keep the margins high and make it possible for us to, well do, to keep bootstrapping the business.And we had a bunch of side gigs back in the day, so that made it easier.Yeah.And I think that the ba you, you know,finding the right balance between those side gigs and being able to grow the business is, is tricky, right?Because we all are, you know, none of us are yet independently wealthy and, you know, still trying to balance the, re the responsibilities of life.So it's, you know, the, the journey of the bootstrapper is a very different journey than that of the, of the, the venture raise.And, you know, neither one's better or worse, but they're, they're.The priorities are very different and I like what you had to say about the allocation of capital, right?I think you're absolutely bang on that in the right out of the gates in the startup phase, it's hard to know where to allocate your capital.And I think that a lot of those early stage guys, they get money and then they have to do something with it, right?And I think sometimes it gets misallocated and sometimes it's,it's being used too quickly.For growth that might not be the right growth.Yeah.You, you sometimes are incentivized to spend money.Yeah.Because investors will look at how, what you do with their investment and they're like, Hey, you're not spending money.Why did we give it to you?Obviously that depends on the investor,and great investors know that it's.Sometimes great to, to take some time.But I've seen that pressure to, to invest and to do something to be effective with the money they, they invested.And, but sometimes you just don't know.And I believe it's, it's great to take some time to, to be diligent and put it in the right place.And in the early days you just don't know.And that's okay.So you went through this twice and you kept going.So tell me a little bit about that,that sort of mindset that you were in that helped you continue down that path, down the entrepreneurial path.Because a lot of people, that's, you gotta have a stomach for it, right?I kept going, but I changed direction.The main change for me was, To, to switch to a completely different industry I was in, in marketing and, and, and tech before, but I really doubled down on,on the industry I'm in right now, which is search engine optimization and even a, a subsection there, link building.But what I loved about that industry and what kept me going was the clarity of what customers wanted.You could see it in the search results,they type it into Google and it will tell you, okay, this is what we want.Give us, solve the problem for us.And I, I love that part because that was the hard part that I really struggled with during the startup days, not knowing what to build and what problem to solve, which of the thousands of problems that we, we saw was actually the right one to solve.So s e o made it super clear and it provided also different framework how to build the company a much more,I don't want to call it lifestylely approach, but maybe that what?That's it, what it was back in the day.It, it allowed for a much slower growth,but much more conscious growth that also fit well into my, my lifestyle back then.And allowed for, yeah, better li work life balance, even though I don't really like that word.But it is in the end I realized work is not everything and I, back in the day, I defined myself through work quite a bit.It's like if you, if you're in a startup realm, it's, it's about growing and getting investment and you're so proud that you signed investors.And all of that is like an ego game to some extent.At least it was for me.And that process allowed me to disconnect from that a little bit,or at least the first steps from disconnecting from this ego game.And going through that, what you mentioned earlier with relationships, going through that process of gaining self-awareness.And understanding what do I want in life?Why is this so important?Am I optimizing or am I doing this best business because I'm driven by pain?I want to want status, I want like push my ego because I run a successful startup, ideally.Or is it something that really enriches my life in, in different aspects?And that was, that was the beginning of a completely different journey.That is much more rewarding to be quite honest than just building a business.Yeah, I agree and I'm glad that you said that.I know that, you know, sometimes I look and I think, oh, I could have been the c e o of this big company and, you know, had all the accolades and all of the, the upward mobility.But then I, when I really think about what that would be like from a lifestyle perspective and how that would feel, I.I wouldn't be happy.Right.I, I love my flexibility.I love to be able to dig into innovative projects.I like to be able to kind of go where my interests lead and have that, you know,have that change in variety and, you know, still be able to build something.But on my own terms, and I realized that from a values perspective, that was more important to me than having the ego boost of, you know, running a big.A big organization and climbing the corporate ladder and being, you know, held in that kind of regard.It just, it wouldn't sustain me.But I think that there are people who would, and that's totally fine,but I think we have to, we, we don't spend a lot of time becoming self-aware as business owners.We better, I think that's, that's the most important process to go through, in my opinion, as a business owner, not just for yourself.But also because it will reflect in the business that you're building, right?Your own patterns and conditioning will show up in the business and the culture that you build.So that's a completely different story.But for yourself, in, in, in my experience, really understanding what drives you and what, what makes you tick and which aspects of life are important to you and what you might have to sacrifice and what ideals and and dreams you might have to sacrifice in order to.To live a happy life, but maybe not a successful one, quote unquote,whatever that means, right?In the, in the eyes of society,parents, whoever gave you the ideas in the first place.I think that is, is the most rewarding journey.And then as business owners, we have the luxury to craft that because we are not dependent on an employer.We are the employers.So we can craft a business that fits.Into our life and not the other way around where we fit into the business and we have to keep it running.And that is ultimate freedom, which is amazing.A hundred percent.And the first thing I do with all of my clients, which is non-negotiable, is to figure out who they are as business owners first.Because if they've built a business around, you know, what you quote unquote should do or what everyone else is doing, but it's not aligned with who they are as people, you're gonna have friction in that business forever.And that's when you have issues with growth and revenue and all of the things that we're kind of after as business owners.So tell me a little bit more about Dofollow.So the work that you're doing now, who are you serving?Who are you working with?What, what's the offer?Yeah, so we help B2B companies mostly in the technology space, marketing space,education space to rank on Google.That, that is kind of the, the pitch.We.Have a team of 15 people now, we'll be30 30 people by the end of this year.So we're growing quite quickly.Fully remote international team,30 nationalities, but I keep losing track of because we're hiring so many.So when we mainly work with.Clients who have very similar values to us.I think that's, that's very important.That's a learning we made very early on that we can choose.And saying no is something that I've learned to be very powerful.It's, it's probably the most powerful word that I, I use on a daily basis.So we, we quite selective with who we work with.In order to explain this, I would have to dive into a little bit deeper into seo, but in a nutshell, We believe in, in doing things right, it's not scamming, not manipulating the algorithm,which is a huge topic in the SEO space.Everyone wants to rank on Google.Some people are willing to do more shady things.Some people are not willing to do that, and they've, that's what's called Whitehead seo.And we follow a very, a path that we think is very aligned with what, what Google wants.And we are.Looking for clients who believe what we believe, and we are trying to build a long-term relationship.And the whole business is built around that kind of value match.Because we don't do contracts.People can join and cancel any time.So there is no, there's no framework that we've built to keep you in in, yeah,in in the business unless you want to.And that's.That's kind of the, that's why it feels good to run the business because they, we don't have to convince anyone.It's just the service we provide.And if they like it, they stay.And luckily, most clients decide to stay.But that kind of feedback loop makes it very rewarding to,to run a, run the business.Because everyone is there because they want you.We don't force anyone no long-term contracts that lock you in.And it's, it's much more fun that way.And,and it's, it's great to hear that because I know in my experience that getting locked in when you're running a business that changes all the time is really frustrating, and I know why vendors do it.But it's you know, it's not conducive to the types of organizations that you're serving.And I, I think that, you know, especially with the culture that you're building,that counts a lot more than, you know, the revenue and the top line.So these are b2b.These are, these are technology companies that are looking to rank higher.And why, why do they choose you over another service or another approach?Yeah.So there, there are a lot of service providers out there.There we are not like unique in the,in the marketing sense of what we do.We are unique in terms of how we do it.So to, I, I need to elaborate quickly about s e o a little bit so that the core, how Google became Google was that.They developed a concept that basically the more people link to you, the higher you you rank.It's kind of a voting system.And back in the day it was very simple.These days we have ai.The whole algorithm is very smart in understanding the context of a page.It understands what someone is talking about on this page, where the links point to if these links point make sense.If they're there to manipulate the algorithm, if they were bot right in.In general, Google understands way more our work that we do as link builders and SEO agencies, and what Google is trying to do is they're optimizing for the end user, right?The you and me who's typing something into Google trying to, to get an answer to their question, they're trying to optimize for their that user's experience.And our job, what we believe in is not to manipulate the, the algorithm by placing links to sites that don't make sense,that don't enrich the user experience.We believe in placing links that make contextual sense, that really enrich the experience and answer questions to the user.So what we do is, and it's a, it's a mindset shift for a lot of our clients because usually, You have conversion pages, you have important pages on your website that convert the users where you make your money and you want those to rank.That's, it's a very straightforward process.We often say no to those requests because what we want it, it doesn't make sense often to build a link to a page that makes sense for the company, but not for the user.Right.It doesn't answer the question the user's asking.So we take a.An approach where you have to let go a little bit.You have to let go of control and let us find the perfect fit between what makes a sense for the website.We built the link on the user that's reading that content and that is still relevant to the content our clients have.It's a different approach than what's normal in the, in the industry, but we believe it's way more sustainable.It's more aligned with what Google wants,which then prevents you from being hit by algorithm updates and pen penalties.And it's just a, a process that also makes the end user happy which then makes them easier to convert.And so it is a mindset shift.But one we believe will lead to a much.Better long-term results than what's currently been done in the industry.So what's working for you in terms of growth?Yeah.That is a topic we are tackling right now.So we, we've grown to, to seven figures with a lot of like referrals and just being active in communities and getting our name out there.But we never really had a strong marketing channel that was repeatable.Now we are actively tackling that.So we are actively working on, on partnerships which is very promising.Basically we're connecting with people who have an audience that could use our service.But we also do a lot of sponsorings.We work with newsletter outlets people who write about marketing,who have the audience that yeah that might need our service.And all of that is working really well.Surprisingly.It's like we, we work.We tapped into this early late last year, and the growth we have seen is, is quite impressive.So very, yeah, very excited for this year.Now you're in an industry that changes a lot and, and, you know, has the potential to change drastically.How have you been innovating and staying on top of where you need to be?Yeah, this is.It is a big topic, especially with everything AI related these days.ChatGPT pt is in, everyone's on everyone's mind these days.So the, the only way to stay up to date is to to be in all the groups, talking to all the experts reading the news.There is no, no other way.You need to have a finger on the pulse to understand how the industry might be changing.Google's actually quite helpful these days.They, they tell you what they wanna see and you can build strategies around that, but I, I think also it helps to look at what other people are not doing.So just looking at the industry, money usually flows in the ways that are where it's easy to make money, but that often leaves some space and areas where it's hard, but maybe better.Right.So you can.Take the analogy of a car sometimes it, it, it takes a lot more investment to build a fancy car, but it might be worth it because there's is an audience that will invest the money to buy, to buy this car.So we looked at what everyone else was doing and looked at all the easy ways to do it, but maybe not sustainable, not with the quality that we want to see.We then found a spot for us that felt authentic to us and has the quality approach that we wanna see.And turns out there are a lot of companies that actually enjoy that.And yes, we are a premium business.We, we definitely have higher prices than many of our competitors,but we do a really good job.So that's quality positioning.Worked out really well.So it's not really innovating because technology has changed that too.But it's also just looking at the market and rethinking the norms and what everyone else is doing and thinking differently to take Apple's slogan here and trying to find a different positioning that might actually feel better.And to be honest, we did it because it made us feel good about the business.Not necessarily, we weren't unsure if it would resonate with the clients.Thankfully it did.But it made us feel good because we believe in the work that we do and that is way more important than closing 20, 30% more clients.I agree.And you, you know, you mentioned that you have been adding a lot of new people.Yes.Very quickly.Mm-hmm.And you also mentioned that you, you know, it's, well, we've, you know, we've talked about this in a few different contexts, how important it is that in your business you are staying true to your values, to the culture that you've built, in the mindset that you're approaching business from.So how are you ensuring that that stays protected as you're adding new team members and you're growing at a rapid pace?You're asking all the hard questions.I I don't think there is a way to ensure it, it, it's constant work.It's, so first of all, I'm always involved in all the hiring position decisions that we make.So I'm, I'm trying to keep a finger on the, on, on the pulse and like who we are hiring and, and whatnot, but that's not sustainable.So what we are trying to do is building culture from the ground up.So we don't have to look at it all the time.That is a much longer process.But there, there are certain things that I think are very important in terms of culture and, and then people will feel a mismatch.And that's, even though they might not be able to consciously explain it.So what we focus on, for instance,is like creating safe space.Safe space in order to make mistakes.We actively comu communicate these things.Like we, we, we share our mistakes that we make.Like these little things like living,like, be it a living example, leading by example, I think is very important.Not only in the, the fancy values that, you know, like be adventurous and break rules and all that stuff,but also in, in the failures.And where we, we, we didn't do a good job and then, Depending on the values you wanna optimize for.I think just living that and, and creating that space and making sure the people that are involved in the hiring decision really live these values that can, I wouldn't say ensure it, we still make hiring mistakes.It's it's hard, especially remote to, to really assess someone and,and see if they're a good fit.But we, we are doing everything to optimize it.So our hiring hiring process is a little bit longer.We do asynchronous video interviews and then we do live interviews.So lots of tiny things.But I think the most important one is to just live the culture and be aware of what the culture should be and have a finger on the pulse.In, in case something is off and it something is always off.That's, that's the hard thing to, to really understand.And you can use tools like we use office Vibe to have like send us out pulse surveys and whatnot, but that will only give you so much.It's, it's really listening, talking to people and, and then selecting the right people that have the same mindset to.To give you feedback on what you're doing wrong.And also creating the culture of, yeah,everyone can speak up and say, Hey,what you said doesn't make any sense.I think you are on the wrong track here to your boss.And that's super hard.Yeah.But is the only way for you to become aware of issues because we have so many blind spots.So you need someone who can tell you, and there needs to be a culture.Of speaking up and being true, honest,and, and, and sharing thoughts even though they might clash with, well,everyone else, or your boss or whatever.Super hard to do.I dunno, I'm learning on a daily basis how to, how to do this.I don't have the, the full recipe here, but yeah, it's, it's in the little things I believe.And I think just the fact that you're paying attention to it, you're cognizant of it, you're aware of it.You know, you're already that much further ahead because I think a lot of organizations, they, they speak the speak, but they really don't know how to, how to make that actually work.And there isn't as much incentive to, right.It's, it's more it's more a cultural thing that, you know, they believe in, but can't necessarily put it into practice.And I imagine that's also, you know, tricky that because you have a fully remote workforce, which in our industry, and I grew up in the.com.When you know it was absolutely crazy and you know, chaotic.But all the way through, we've been really used to remote teams and people working remotely, but it's a fairly new thing for most of the world.Right.And most of the work world.So do you find it particularly challenging to create that cohesion and that culture and that mindset and that consistency in the people that you're are working for you with them distributed?Yeah, it's, it's definitely a lot harder.And I was a big supporter of remote work.I, I even built during the pandemic remote job board here for, for Germany.Just, just for fun because I,I loved remote work so much.But over the, the last two, three years, I, I realized that remote,remote work is great for lifestyle design, but it has its challenges.Culture is one, but also education is one.Especially when you hire a lot of juniors that have maybe don't have any work experience or just very little, it's astounding how much you learn by osmosis and there is no osmosis when you are in remote teams.You cannot just look over the shoulder and see, well, you can shadow someone if they share their screen.But you learn so much in an office environment just by listening.How other people have a phone call,how they write their emails, because you know, you can, you can ask them.There's, there's a lot that's actually lost.And what I'm trying to figure out these days is how can we make sure that we create an environment that replicates that a little bit.Which is that again,culture is, is transmitted.It's more like a virus.It's, it's, you know, like if someone lives the culture and someone who has authority, that will transmit,some other people will pick it up just because you are showing it.So it's not just for knowledge, but it's also the culture that is being shared.So, I don't have a great answer on how to do this remotely.I just think it's a lot of communication.It's, it's being aware that it's a challenge and then feeling into it like, are we there?Is this where we want to be?Do we see people contributing as much as we want?Do we see people speaking up as much as we want?Do we.See them sharing their dreams and ideas, right?It's like, it's, it's not something you can measure.You.You have to be someone who wants to work in a company that feels good.And why?Simply, and I think that, yeah, I,I think maybe you can't measure it,but I think there are indicators and I think being aware of those indicators, just like you've listed off a bunch of them to me right now is, is critically important beyond just a dashboard with metrics, right?Metrics are important.We need to know our numbers, but we also need to know, Are like our indicators of the values that we're trying to perpetuate throughout the business.So what's in the future?What's in the future for Dofollow for, you know, the next year or two?Growth.That's, that's the main thing.And keeping everything together while we grow.I think that's, that's the interesting part.We, we've built a rocket ship,but now we have to really.Increase the speed and,and the scale of things.And it will be interesting to see how well the systems and the cohesion of like culture and all that, that remains the same or improves or if it falls apart.So that, that's something I'm well not concerned about, but I'm, I'm thinking a lot about how to deal with growth without losing what we have.I think that's, that's the most important, important thing.But we are building our growth engine right now, so I am, I'm looking forward to grow to hopefully eight figures over the next two, three years that, that's, that would be ideal.But it should feel good in the process.So that's, that's the quantitative and qualitative answer to this.I want this to feel good.I want everyone to enjoy the ride.And if we have to dial down growth in order to, to make sure that's the case, we'll do that as well.There is no point in growing just for the sake of growing.That's a whole different story of like, why do we, why are we doing this in the first place?Right?What are we optimizing for?Because money is not just,that's, that's not the answer.So it ride needs to be fun.It's interesting to hear that from a business that does what you do, not to paint it with broad brush strokes, but I think most people would, would expect that, you know, a business inside the SEO space would be, I.You know, just kind of pump and dump and driving and automation and all of that sort of thing.But to know that there's sort of a heart behind this business is, I think is a huge competitive advantage for you.And it, you know, if there's a way to make to ensure that that's always present for you, I think that would that.That serves you well, for sure.And you know, my big question for you was going to be growth at what cost?But it sounds like you've already answered that question, right?It, it's not at any cost.And, you know, would you rather stay kind of where you are right now if growth meant that you had to sacrifice the heart of the company?Yeah.If, if that, if that was the decision, I, I don't believe it is.But if that was the decision, then yeah, I think it would rather stay.Where we are.Yeah.Have a great relationship with our clients and customers, and know that the team is enjoying the process as well.And that's, that's it.That was always the idea, right?We, we never had, it was never the plan to build this into a larger company.It was a side business in the early days, and we wanted to make three,four grand each to live a good life.That that was the idea.And now obviously this is very different.But the, the core of that, and we say that in every hiring call, the, the idea is to, to enjoy the right, to, to learn to, to be able to share the experience.But what's the point of life if you hate 50, 60, 70% of your day because you have to do something you don't enjoy.It is like, no one wants that.We don't want that.We want everyone to have the ability to travel, to experience stuff and.That's the whole company is structured around this, right?We don't track time.We, we don't do all these things that many companies do.We, we are outcome driven.We trust the team to do the things that are necessary, and as long as the results are there, we don't care if they're sit on a mountain or on the beach somewhere.And that's the idea.Do you have, do you enjoy the ride?Yep.And hopefully make a good living.Yeah.Well, there's no reason we can't have both, right?Yes, exactly.So I have a question that I ask everyone, all my guests, and I'm curious to hear your answer as well.What's the difference between what we hear out there in the business world and the online business world and what's real about being an entrepreneur?Mm-hmm.That's a good question.I think.The journey is, is not about the glamor.And that's the stories we hear a lot about and a lot on YouTube and all the books are written about that aspect of the,the performative aspects of the business.But we don't talk enough about what it does to us as humans, like our personal growth in that and.The, the understanding of like, why am I doing it?What do I want from life business?A business is a force multiplier and a forcing function to learn about ourselves.And like in any relationship, a business is a relationship with multiple people in, in a way.It will show up in so many ways and if you take the chance to see it that way, to see it as a mirror.That is the, that's where the fun is in my opinion.It's not the, the glamorous stories, like, like I had a eight figure AC exit or whatnot.It's like, who have I become as a person in the process of running this business, and who do I want to be as a leader business owner?What do I want to contribute to my community, to family partners?Those are the, the interesting questions in my opinion.And it's so much fun.Also quite hard sometimes, to be quite honest to go through this process.But you'll learn so much.I recommend have a therapist or a coach on the sides to, to talk about these things and to understand how your patterns are maybe contributing so to some of the conflicts you might be having.But that's, that's good stuff.That is, it's a chance, it's it's growth, personal growth, and that's,Let's ignore the, the money for, for a second and the glamor and the status,and just look at it from a perspective that we can become better human beings.And that's, that's super cool.I,yeah, I agree.I, I believe that entrepreneurship can do a lot of good for our,our broken cultures, our broken society, and our families.And, you know, we, the more people we can get, Being more autonomous in their work and being able to bring their ideas to fruition, I think the better served we are as a society.But that's a whole other topic for a whole other episode, but thank you so much.So we're coming up on time.I just wanted to ask you if you can share with the listeners, how can they find you?Yeah, so I am not very active on social media to be quite honest,because I have nothing to sell.If you need SEO and link building services, go to Dofollow.io.You'll find me there, but I have nothing else to sell.I'm not active.I'm not sharing a lot about my life because I learned that that distracts from experiencing it.And.So there's not a lot of places you can find me.You can find me on LinkedIn, obviously.You might find me on Twitter at SebSchaeffer, but I'm not tweeting that much and I'm also not reading that much.So I'm trying to actively stay away.That's just a lifestyle choice.I notice it makes me a happier person.So yeah.LinkedIn or do follow.io.That's great.We'll put both of the links in the show notes so that they can follow along and follow along with the progress of the business.So we're gonna wrap up because we've come up on time, but I'm so happy we had the opportunity to chat with Sebastian today to hear more about how his business came to be, his experiences along the way, and what the future of the business entails.And thank you for tuning into this episode of The Real People Real Business Show,where we get the real entrepreneurial stories and journeys that you can relate to the show notes, resources and links from this episode are available on my website and social media platform.If you've enjoyed today's content,I'd love for you to give us a review on whatever platform you're on to help us share these genuine stories with an even bigger audience.Until next time, keep building.Keep dreaming and keep being real.