Cleoniki Kesidis - Forging Connection as a Creative

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Welcome to the Real People Real Business Show.My name is Stephanie Hayes, and I'm a business strategist who helps experience business owners design asset-based business models that set them up for growth and exit.I love to speak with like-minded entrepreneurs to share their real stories in the gritty details of how they've navigated their own way through.On this show, you won't hear about the glamorized entrepreneurship journeys that you see online, and you won't be told how to make six figures in six weeks.Instead, you can expect to hear real, vulnerable and inspiring stories that you can relate to that have helped create the foundation for each of our guests businesses.Today, I'm so excited to welcome Cleoniki Kesidis.Cleoniki is a copywriter and brand storyteller who helps solo entrepreneurs and small businesses connect with their audience on an emotional level and has developed brand platforms for large international brands, coaches,startups, and more an education in biology and computer science taught Klia Nii precision and an and analysis, which has helped her approach copywriting analytically, investigating problems and applying the most effective solutions.Welcome to this show and thanks so much for taking the time to share your story today.Yeah, thanks so much for having me.So gimme this.Tell me a little bit more about this background.I'm, I'm intrigued by it.So you started in biological sciences and in a very scientific career rooted in data and analysis.Mm-hmm.And you ended up in a very creative field.Yeah, so I actually started out, I,as a software engineer and worked as a software engineer for a couple years there doing legacy code and c the whole thing.And I decided that that wasn't really for me.I didn't love that.I moved into biology and, and did a master's.So a lot of research, a lot of data, a lot of analysis.And there was a lot that I loved that I enjoyed about both those careers.And I found that what I was really enjoying was the process of figuring out how stuff works and how to communicate that.So I really, really loved presenting to people and sharing information and just figuring out how to, how to communicate these more complicated processes.And I'd always loved writing, so I was doing some freelance writing.And then the, the pandemic hit around the time that I'd finished my master's and so it just felt like a, a good time to jump into freelance writing and copywriting in specific specifically.So yeah, that's how I got there.And I find that in copywriting, it's really a lot of the same thing that I really enjoy is that figuring out how theft works really digging into these details and figuring out exactly what's going on, and then how to communicate that in a way that's really simple and clear.Yeah, it's that perfect marriage of science and analytics and you know, creativity.Mm-hmm.And , I've had a lot of copywriters that have been my clients and I know that it's very much Like the creative side comes after you've gone through and, and been very analytical about the work that you're doing.And so I think that, you know, a lot of people start out in these creative fields and they think,oh, I'm just a good writer and so therefore I'm just gonna write well.But it, as you know, there's a whole lot more to it.So can you talk a little bit about what you've discovered about working with clients and how you marry those two sides of the business?Yeah, I mean, writing is such a small part of the business really.It's such a small percentage of, of what you're doing because so much of it is about that information gathering and,and really figuring out what it is.And I do think that that's really key to communication in general, really.It's the whole, you know, the,the quote about how I didn't have time to write something short, so I wrote something long.I always forget which author wrote that.But it's basically the idea that if you wanna communicate well and,and clearly and be concise, that that is, is so much more work.Goes into just that idea and that processing and planning your, your message basically.Yeah, I own a software company and when we first built.The solution that we, you know, that's our core product.You know, a lot of people really perceive this type of solution as something very straightforward and very simple.Mm-hmm.And what we really discovered was that it's actually really complex to make something simple.Yes.It's very, very true.And so tell me a little bit about how you got started.So, who, who were your first clients?How did you find them?How did you bridge that gap that everybody seems to, you know, be concerned about,which is, you know, I, I wanna work with clients and they wanna see evidence of the work that I've done, but I'm just starting out and I know I can do it.So tell me a little bit about that part of the journey.So, Yeah.Yeah.So that's for sure one of the hardest parts when you're starting out, of course, is those first couple clients.For me, one big thing that really helped is I took a course and I'd actually been doing a lot of freelance writing very casually for a very, you know, a couple hours a week maybe for a couple years at that point while doing other stuff during the day.And it was just, it was very random.It was, it wasn't, I didn't really know what to do next.And there is of course, a ton of free information out there, obviously, but I found that when I looked at free information like just reading blog posts and, and researching on Google,there's so much contradictory stuff.There's so many different people just saying all these different things and it's so overwhelming and chaotic.So what made the difference for me and really got me from being someone who's.Writing a couple hours here and there to someone who's doing this full-time and, and supporting my, my daughter doing it too.What got me there was, was sitting down and, and paying for a course and following a system.And that really made such a big difference.And then from there, getting those first clients was really all about relationships.And I still think that that's a huge part of my, my business and getting clients and really something that I think.Partially has, has maybe been lost in some industries, is just the importance of having those relationships.And I know that, you know, social media is of course huge and of course very important to a lot of businesses.But I think sometimes people, especially when they're starting out, can be distracted by the social media and the blogging and all of those things.As opposed to the importance of really talking to people, building a network, pulling on your network and,and having those human interactions.I'm so glad that you said that because it's my lifelong mission and battle to help people understand that they, they can't get away with kinda lazy marketing, right?Mm-hmm.And then, you know, I think a lot of people get, I.Attracted to the idea of social media because they think they can just do everything from behind mm-hmm.Their computer.And it's increasingly less the case as there's more and more saturation.And you know, Instagram 10 years ago was a very different world than Instagram now, and it's almost become irrelevant to building a business.So all that social media does is.Give you a platform on which to publish your content so that when people find you, they're able to get to know you.Right.But the, you know, the.The relationship building and, and that, that's the funny thing, is like, it's actually the easiest form of marketing, but, and the most fun.Everybody, everybody.Nobody wants to do it.Everyone wants to like, so tell me a little bit more about how you've built that.Like have you systematized your relationship building and where do you, where do you focus those efforts?Yeah, so I, I have systematized it.It's pretty simple.It's just on a, a Trello board where I keep track of different people I've met and, and sort of where that relationship is.And basically I work at meeting new people, of course, and I u do that often through networking events but also just.You know, connecting with people on social media is a great way to connect with people if you try that.And different places like that to bring people, just meet new people.And then from there what I try to do is to just keep in touch with people regularly,and I actually track it, which feels a little bit it could feel a little bit fake, but I, I don't think it is fake.It's just making sure, I don't want to forget anybody or have someone who was a really great connection,who I really enjoyed talking to.You know, it's awful when you're like,Oh, I haven't spoken to them in a year.Oh shoot.I really liked them.So I do keep track of the, the people who I, I did feel like we had a good connection and, and could be a great potential client or a partner or, or just someone that I'm really enjoying talking to and learning from and connecting with.And make sure that I reach out regularly and we just keep in touch and yeah,follow each other on social media.Keep reaching out, keep suggesting things,try to be valuable and helpful to them.Obviously that's something, there's limits to how much that can scale of course, and you wouldn't wanna be spending, you know, an enormous amount of time just checking in on people.But I do think it's important to identify those valuable relationships and then to, to prioritize them.Cuz if that's a priority, like, yeah,it should be on your to-do list.It should be something that you're,you're keeping track of and making sure that that person doesn't just slip away.But that's a fallacy, isn't it?That we have to have marketing systems that scale, that we have to have businesses that scale, right?This prevailing wisdom, that successful businesses, one that scales.I mean, what if you don't want that?Mm-hmm.Right?What if you're perfectly happy being a personal brand and a service provider and you, you know, you need five clients.Yeah.Why do, why do we need to build systems that scale?Yeah.Yeah, for me, definitely.I mean, I have a, a, a toddler and it's, you know, I don't,I don't work 40 hours a week.That's, I don't know how people can work that long with a toddler.There's always a, another disaster, you know, there's, you don't work with toddler at all.Yeah.Yeah.So I really like that, I'm able to make that decision as a, a business owner.It's one of, I think, the best parts of being a business owner is that you can say, You know, I don't have to be working more and more hours and taking on more and more clients and I can advance and feel, you know, growing my business can be growth in different way.You know, it's nice that getting to the point where I can book clients further in advance or getting to the point where, you know, there's more reliably or I'm able to choose my favorite clients a little bit more, you know, and, and really pick projects I'm super passionate about as opposed to feeling like I need to just pile on more and more and more and more.Yeah.And are, are you finding yourself sort of falling into any sort of specialization or any sort of focus as you grow?I've, that's honestly something that I'm a little bit torn about, to be completely honest, because there are of course things that I particularly like, I really love working with.With tech because, and sciences,cuz I do have that background.So that's a really, I really love those sort of interesting you know, startups with really interesting innovations and just all the cool stuff that's going on, of course in tech these days.And I, my, you know, favorite projects are often things.I like websites, I like branding.But at the same time, I think that if I had all, you know, a host of five or 10 clients that were all that that would be boring.So it's, I I also really enjoy having, having that variety.And I think that the, the fun of learning something new I think is really what being a service provider is.So, What makes being a service provider so great to me is, is being able to really connect with people one-on-one and learn about this, this business that they created, which is so unique and there's so many different things out there.I mean, I've, I've run into so many businesses or, or stumbled upon clients that are doing stuff that, you know, I wouldn't even have realized that existed.You know, it's like, what even is?This.But I absolutely love getting to dig into that stuff.So, no, I don't think I'll ever get to the point where I'm very, very specialized in a, in a super, super specific niche because while I do have stuff I, I enjoy and, and seek out, I really love having those just surprises.And the, the interesting curve balls.I had, I did a consulting project once with a pallet company.Mm-hmm.And it's one of those things like, it's a huge business and it's, they make tons of money just tracking pallets.I would never have even known that that's a thing.Like, yeah, wooden in pallets sitting at the side of the road at somebody's house or something like that.Those things are worth a lot of money.And organizations who use them a lot in like a shipping or logistics capacity, they, they wanna know where all their pallets are because they Sure they're a huge cost of their business.So this company had created a whole like technology around tracking pellets.Very interesting.Yeah.It's stuff like that.That's just so cool.It's so, it's cool to see how the world works, you know?You just learn something new about how, the stuff you take for granted,right.And how the money flows mm-hmm.In different places.Right.Mm-hmm.So tell me, so there's, there's some aspect of creativity that needs to exist for you, obviously as a record that, you know, that like the analytical mind will take you so far.But you know, was this something that was there already?Was this something that you learned?Tell me, tell me more about that side of the business.Yeah.Yeah.So the creativity is definitely, I mean, that's something that I think philosophy and science can't, can't answer yet exactly how we do that.And it's something I've definitely always loved writing and loved creativity in lots of different forms.So I think that that is there as far as.Talent or whatever that means as far as innate ability.Though I do think that that many people who don't consider themselves creative really could be, or, or are if they, you know, found the right way to, to express it to access it.I think that the creativity from combining that with a business side is very interesting.Cuz creativity is something you can't necessarily control, you know, even if it's, if it's your own brain.So that's, I think something that's interesting to balance when you are creative in business is how do you have,you know, business, which of course you're meant to have things, there's deadlines, there's meetings, there's,there's schedules with this creativity,which you really can't necessarily call up on demand or make it work at all the time, you know, eight hours a day.Yeah, that's the age old problem, right?With creativity as a business offering, right?Like how do you.Trigger that on.And I know some of my creative friends just like it is a struggle.It's a struggle for them, right?Because they're just, they're like, I need to produce this thing by this time.Mm-hmm.And yet, here I am just completely blocked, or, you know.Mm-hmm.The energy isn't there today or whatever.And those are real things.You don't just get to.Exactly to be creative.Right.So how have you kind of worked through that and how have you sort of been able to keep that business side of the, of a very creative.Yeah, so one thing I think definitely is you really have to take burnout seriously.And I know it can sometimes feel a little cliche, like you see a lot of people talking about burnout these days.But you really have to take it seriously and consider it, you know,as a business owner from a business perspective, that this is like a very big risk and you need to.You need to be careful about burnout.You need to know what the signs are for yourself.You need to be alert to that, and you need to take action to, to help when you feel that you are burning out.Which is hard.And that definitely was something that those first couple years in business was very, you know, definitely a struggle to learn and to realize that this isn't something where you can just sort of shrug it off.You need to take it seriously when you start getting those signals that, like my brain is turning into applesauce,like it's something you need to react to.I think another thing that helps me a lot is really working.I like to think of the writing and the creative process in two steps.So the step of just getting words on the page.I like to use like the sandbox metaphor.It's like putting stuff sand in the sandbox and then the step of.Shaping it into something that's great.So, you know, building the sand into a sandcastle.And I think every time I'm, if I'm feeling really stuck, it can help to,to remind myself like, okay, this is the step where I'm just putting sand in the sandbox and it doesn't have to look good.Cuz I do think that a lot of times with creativity, it's that perfectionism or that part of us that feels like we should be able to write it right.The first time or in one go or in one draft.Which is just not true.Like, that's just not,not how writing works.No.One of my best friends is a, is a graphic designer and she's, you know, we're both around 50 and so she's been at it for a long time and we've been working together for many, many years and she's at the point now where she goes, you know what?I'm just like, I'm giving you like a shitty first draft because.It, it makes such a difference for someone to have something to respond to, right?Mm-hmm.To react to.Absolutely.She's like, I don't care whether they like it or they don't like it, because I know it's just like, you know,getting some stuff on a page so that they can say, oh, I like this thing about this and that thing about that.Exactly.And so then we can kind of move on from there.And that's the way she approaches all of her work.Mm-hmm.And she doesn't get herself like crippled or paralyzed mm-hmm.Around whether it's,it's perfect or it's not.Right.And I think that that's a pretty unique.Approach with a lot of creatives who instead get really bent out of shape about Yeah.You know, whether it's perfect or whether it's not perfect.Yeah.I absolutely believe that.I know that one of my mentors was saying at one point that you know, aim for like b plus.Because I think that there are a lot of us who are, who are a plus kind of people,and we want that a plus and we want every single thing we make to be a plus.And of course you want your final result to be a plus, but that first draft, that first shot, like aim for B plus, like just, just do something that's pretty close and it's okay.And then you're gonna come back and you're gonna get feedback and you're gonna,you know, iterate and edit and that's how you're gonna get it to the a plus.You can't.Pound out an A plus when you, you know,sit there and type it and watch it on.So how do you, what do you say to people who,like I know very experienced copywriters who will still just agonize over the first thing that goes to a client, even though they know it's like meant to be that sort of shitty first draft, right?Mm-hmm.So, I mean, it's not gonna be shitty.It's gonna be like the.You know, good place to start First draft.Yes.So how do, how, what's your advice to sort of maybe through that,that agonizing kind of judgment?Because it is a little bit of a, a combination of you and creative works really hard because it's so open to interpretation.I think one thing that I've found is that when you, I mean that's basically, it's a question about perfectionism, right?It's that fight against the need to have every single thing be, be perfect.And obviously there's a lot to say about perfectionism, but I think that one thing that helps is.When you start releasing that and you start, you know, sending stuff to clients just to get feedback and be like, look, this isn't perfect,but like, let's, let's chat about it.You'll often find that people don't react horribly the way you might be fearing or imagining they're going to that like, oh, you had a typo in there.This is garbage.You know, people don't do that.And often the things that us, as you know, if you're an expert in your field, of course the things that you might notice or bother you, a client might not even notice.So I think that once you start releasing that and you start just trying and experimenting and letting yourself sort of do that, you know, quote, shitty first draft, even though of course it's not gonna be the that shitty You do start to find that like, you know, the sky doesn't fall and that it brings that so much value to have client input earlier.It's more efficient, honestly.I mean, how frustrating is it to work so hard to perfect something and then ha be like, oh no, that's not what we wanted.We want something completely different.I mean, of course that's so frustrating.And it just, I think it.It, it, it doesn't go as badly as you think it's gonna go.It's a sort of thing like,try it, it's gonna be okay.And it's also, it can bring benefits.I mean, getting more collaboration and more back and forth.It's, it's only gonna make your work stronger when you think of it as something you're doing collaboratively versus something that has to be sort of perfect and is a little bit untouchable.In my experience client reactions can come from so much more than just what the words on the page are.Mm-hmm.Like if your client is just in a position like this is why a lot of my copywriting clients will actually send people over to me first, because if that client really doesn't know their own business or is really like, Stuck waffling or whatever,nothing you can produce for them is gonna feel right because mm-hmm they're still conflicted about what they're trying to do from a strategic perspective.So I think there's so much more that can, that can be surfaced with, you know,that first draft that is gonna give you really good information really quickly about, you know, where your clients at and you know what they're thinking and that sort of thing.Absolutely.I do feel that copywriting is one of those things that's a little bit of a tip of the iceberg, sort of, of service where people think, okay, I need a copywriter.Like, okay, yeah, I need,I need this written.And you start talking, or you know,I'll start talking to clients and it's like, well, no, you kind of need,like, you need a whole strategy here.Like there's all this stuff underneath this where you thought, okay, well just write it.And like, no, you need a, you need a brand like message.You need a story.You need to like nail down your offer.You need to figure out who your audience is.It's a sort of thing where like you, it's,you know, you sort of open up the box and go, okay, there's a lot more in here.Yeah.Oh.Without that stuff, investing in creative work is actually like a total waste of money.Right.And there's, there's no way that you can be successful in the work that you're doing if that client doesn't absolute,doesn't know their own business first.Right.Absolutely.And it makes such a difference when you're talking to someone Who knows that stuff and once we have it and I do work with clients a little bit to do that sort of brand story.That's also part of what I do in getting that, that story, that messaging,like how are we gonna communicate overall beyond just how are we writing this one page or this one ad?And it makes such a difference once someone does have that nailed down and they understand it and they know how they're communicating.It's just enormous to see how much everything gets so much easier.Like the writing just flows out.It, it's so much easier.Yeah.So tell me a little bit more about how your services have evolved over the, the course of the last couple of years.Yeah, so the evolution is a lot of,because what, what we've just been talking about that I had so many clients who would come for copywriting, which I was starting when I began, I was offering,you know, very strictly writing up.You know, you send me a brief and I'll write it up.So many people didn't have that brief, you know, they didn't have the information they needed to explain exactly what they wanted or they had some of the information, but it just wasn't fully formed yet.And I found that to do the writing, my process was basically becoming that.I would figure out those brand, the brand messages, you know, figure out the audience.Like I'd basically be doing that.As like a background step to the copywriting as like a, a pre-req sort of under, under the table almost.So I've been shifting more and more to be focusing on those services because I do think that that's 90% of the project.And then once you have that and you know exactly what's my message, who am I talking to, what am I doing?The copywriting is so easy.The copywriting just, it writes itself because you know exactly what you're saying.Yeah, that's that whole like data and analytics piece.The best copywriters, I know it,you know, they're great writers,but it's not because they're great writers that they have had the kind of success that they've had.It's because they do all this pre-work,like they do more pre-work than, mm-hmm.Anyone I've ever met from, you know,from All the way from, whether it's a formal sort of brand guidelines, like that's part of their process now and that's non-negotiable or this like very extensive research and mm-hmm.And orientation kind of exercise.And then the ones who just kind of take a brief and write are the ones who, you know, they don't write copy that is mind blowing and they're all good writers.Exactly, but being able to connect to and build like a, a unique message really comes from sort of the data side, doesn't it?Absolutely.It comes from that knowledge.Yeah.You have to have that knowledge.And I mean from a, from a business,like, you know, from the perspective of the business owner, the client, you have to have spoken to your audience.You know, you have to know what they're thinking and what they're feeling and.You know, what exactly do they want and how do they say it in their own words and all these sorts of questions.I think so much of business in general is just about research and about figuring people out.And it's another reason that I love building a business that is around relationships and networking and,and connecting with people because the closer you are to those people and to the people you're working with and serving, just the stronger and the better your business is gonna be.So,A hundred percent.I mean, everything, everything is about people and relationships and mm-hmm.Knowing people and relationships.You know, I've recently gotten more involved in a certain industry and I.The conversations I can have with the people in that industry are so much more focused and targeted because it's like about a thing.And those business owners that you're working with, I imagine like that's their life.They're so immersed in a thing.And here we are kind of going, we're looking at all sorts of different businesses, so it's really hard for us to.I think it's really hard to, to build something and communicate something when you're not really like, well immersed in mm-hmm.The business and the industry and, and at least from a cursory perspective.Absolutely.Yeah.Absolutely.And then how have you seen your clients evolve?Like, have you seen, if you think about some of the first pro folks that you worked for versus who you're working for now, has there been a journey there as well?Yeah, I definitely think so.And I think a lot of that is just building confidence, which is something that when you are, you know, starting up a new business or a new industry or, or,or venturing out on something new, so much of it about is about building that confidence internally and figuring out You know, what you're worth and what you wanna do and who you wanna talk to.So yeah, I definitely think that as I've gotten more skilled, more confident and figure out exactly what I want in my business, I'm getting better and better at connecting with the people who are right for me.Who are the clients that are gonna be.You know, giving projects that I enjoy and people I enjoy working with.I know that at the beginning I had a few clients that were, you know, sort of frustrating or kind of graded on me, and I have noticed that as time's gone by that just happens less and less and less.And I think it's because I am leaning into really getting to know people,really being authentic myself and being confident in, you know, my business and who I am and what I'm doing.And that just means that I'm working more and more with people who I genuinely enjoy.Talking to and being with, and generally,you know, genuinely care about them and their business, which makes everything obviously so much more enjoyable and more successful for everybody.I think that comes back to what you were describing early on was, you know, with your approach to, you know,making new relationships and nurturing those relationships is that, you know, you're, you're showing up pretty genuinely, pretty, you know, accurately as yourself, and I think that, mm-hmm.That.That calls in your people.Mm-hmm.And I know I'm the same way.Like I found myself at the end of my coaching practice really surrounded by people that are really my people, you know?Mm-hmm.They had gotten to know me well enough that, you know, we could.Share the same humor we could,you know, we had the same outlook.And I think you teach people how to treat you too.And that's probably something that evolves as a business owner as well.Absolutely.And I think that's something too.I know a lot of business owners struggle with the fear of sort of, Pushing anyone away.Right?Like cutting anyone out of their audience.Yeah.Which can be, and it comes up all the time in copywriting where someone's like, no, I wanna talk to everybody.Like, I don't wanna narrow this down.I don't want to use like a weird tone of, you know, not a weird, like, unusual tone of voice or unusual kind of humor or anything like that that might.Alienate somebody.And I think it's so important to,to realize and so true that the more you're willing to be authentic and the more you're willing to yeah, use a tone of voice that stands out a little bit or, you know, you don't wanna overshare your personal life,of course, but be, be authentic and be personal and connect with people and,and do stuff a little differently.Yeah, I guess technically you're gonna be pushing people away, but you're gonna be, you're gonna be drawing in the people that you really wanna be working with and you don't need to be scared of, of pushing away, you know,this, this imaginary other audience.But those new people are gonna be so much more bought in to the idea of mm-hmm.Aligning themselves with you because they see themselves in you and because they know that you're their people.Mm-hmm.So you have a much stronger relationship with those.Very likely repeat clients.Right?Exactly.Yeah.Especially as a service provider.I mean, that re relationship and the repeat clients is what is what you want, right?You want this to be a, a long-term thing.Mm-hmm.So, yeah, I think definitely learning to not be, not be scared of, you know, pushing anyone away or, or shutting people out.And letting that scare you into being really gen general and really generic and, and a little fake.Do you think that people need to,like, their writing needs to be.Very similar to how they are as people.And I'll tell you why I asked this because I'm curious about it.In person.I am very like, humor driven,very sarcastic, very funny.People know me as a funny person.But when I write for my business,it's a very different style of writing and I, you know, it wouldn't work for me, it wouldn't uphold my brand.It would, it just doesn't come out.Mm-hmm.Where I'm sarcastic and funny and goofy and whatever in my writing, and Im,remember somebody saying to me once, you know, I've known you for so many years and your writing is really good, but it's not, it doesn't, like, it's not you.It's not your personality,how you are in real life.And I thought, what?But it never will be like,that's not my tone and that's not how my approach to business.And it's not like I'm dry and boring in my writing, but it tends to be a little bit more serious and it tends to be a little bit more inspirational.And it tends to be like, listen, this is my work and I'm taking it seriously and I'm mm-hmm an expert and what I'm talking about, and if I just end up zany and goofy and whatever, then I'm building a brand that doesn't feel really authentic to me.Yeah, I definitely, that is something I see a lot too, especially for personal brands or, or solopreneurs.Very small businesses or people will be saying, you know, you should write the way you talk, you should write,you know, really, really be yourself.And I do think that it's okay to keep that line between yourself and your business even when you are a very small business or a personal brand.And I think that You know, there are issues, again, coming back to burnout of people who really make their business their whole life and let it suck up their whole life and their whole self, and it's everything.And that could be like that, that can be dangerous.I mean, you're, you're gonna burn out.Like that's that.That's gonna lead to problems sooner or later.So I think it is important and valuable to, to have that, that line between who you are, you know, with your friends, like with your family, and who your business is, even if it's very, very close to you.So yeah, I do think it's completely fine to have your business voice be tailored for your business as it should be.It should be tailored for your audience and what you're trying to, to present versus just tailored to you.At the same time though, I do think that people People can lean too much towards that side and,and come off sounding too generic.I think we all, you know, can point to entire industries where every single website is like, yeah, they can all be written by the same person.Like the whole industry's decided they use the same tone.You know, we're seeing that in tech a little bit with this particular like, brand of humor where everyone,like all these startups have the same sort of brand of humor.So I think that it's.You don't have to necessarily, you know, pour your heart out on your sleeve and, and be, you know, share your complete self through your business.But I think it is important to,to look around at what people are doing and to do something different.Like, like be willing to do something a little different, to sound different, to, to shake things up.Yeah.What comes to mind are these sort of like, you know, personal brand people who mm-hmm.You know, saw someone like Asha, Aja sort of crawl, crawl up the ladder?Very early on she was OG in our space and she's actually a friend of mine and.She had lots of sweary bits, but she was an an excellent writer and she was an excellent writer.She also had this little sort of rubble tendency if you know her in person in real life.She's like, she's feisty, but she's not like, You know, rah rah, rebel.But she's smart.And I think a lot of people tried to follow that sort of mm-hmm.And so they would write, like,they would swear in all their copy.And like, I swear a lot, I swear a lot as an, as a human being, as an individual.But I don't swear in my, in my business copy because it's just not who I am as a business person like you,I get up and I talk about business,and I'm gonna talk about business.I'm gonna be a professional and I'm gonna be.You know, inspiring and I'm gonna be emotional and that sort of thing, but it's just not like, I'm not getting up there using like F bombs and everything.So I think there's like that,there was sort of that, that trend.And so I think like what the point that we're sort of trying to make is that I, you wanna appeal to your audience, but not in a way that it doesn't feel authentic, right?Mm-hmm.That doesn't feel like you.And that really does represent the brand that you wanna sort of portray, isn't it?Yeah, and I think it does come back to that, you know, people are looking for something that's a little bit easier,like maybe looking, it's almost like that sort of automating process of you just sort of adopt the tone that's a little bit dominant in your industry or that you've seen other successful people using.And it's almost like an escape from developing that really authentic tone yourself.Right.Which of course is very challenging.And that's definitely something I see a lot in copywriting projects too,where you ask someone, you know like,what's your business tone like, how, you know, what is your tone of voice guide?And a lot of businesses aren't really sure, and I find that if you're not sure about that, it's so easy to just slide into something where you're kind of copying everybody else or you're, you're kind of just.You know, a little bit wishy-washy versus it can be so beneficial to really put in the time and the energy to think about what tone do I want to have?Like, think about it strategically.What is your audience looking for?What are your competitors doing?What tone is gonna be authentic to you?It's gonna ring true to your audience,and it's gonna be, you know, a little bit different than what the other people out there are doing.And, and think about that strategically and, and, and codify it.Get it, get it out there.And then know what your, what your tone is.Okay.I've got a really like per question for you because I have to ask.So of course we have Know cognitive technologies that are you know, arising.And I, I find it interesting to sit back and watch all of the, the pearl clutching and the hand ringing about,and you know, the protests about how these cognitive technologies are.It's gonna, you know, rid the world of all creative skill and thought.And the copywriters are the ones who are,you know, standing up and saying, this is gonna completely destroy my business.So I would lo I have opinions, but I would love to hear that.Well, I'm definitely curious what your opinions are too.Yeah, I mean, I've been, I've been using the AI tools, the,the, the chat bots for sure.Experimenting with them.I found that they, they have their uses.I'm not gonna be like,oh, they're horrible.I've definitely found them useful for thump things.I have not found them to output anything.That's that's final draft ready.You know, getting back to that like shitty first draft kind of thing.They can sometimes get you to a shitty first draft sometimes.But I find that, What people, it comes back to what we were saying before about how the actual writing is not the work of copywriting.So yeah, they can, they can write stuff,but the actual work that you need to do to get something good is all about that.Coming up with the idea, processing the data, figuring out, you know,what does your message need to be like from a strategic point, right?Not, not like what words go in what order, but what is the message?And getting all of that down, figuring out all of that strategy, you know,what sections should be on this landing page and in what order, and what do you know, what are people could be thinking about and what's their major pain point?All of that.And then you do the writing.And the writing is, is, you know, a small percent of the work and sure,there are, there are some cases where using the AI tools can be helpful.Like I said, they don't, I haven't found any to output anything that's good enough that I would.Send it.You know, I think you have to look at the, look at these cognitive technologies and that are in a creative space and you have to say, what do, how do I define like, what's creative work?All writing is not creative work.Right.Mm-hmm.And so if I'm hammering out blog posts for, you know, mm-hmm.The purposes of building up my s e o or you know, just filling in gaps on a,on a site or articles or like product descriptions or something like that.Mm-hmm.There's no, there's no.Real creative work in that work.It's not particularly like it requires somebody to have those creative skills.It's, that's more like collecting data and, and presenting it in a way that's like somehow cohesive.So in, in a sense, those cognitive technologies are really, really great.I know I use them in my work all the time, right?Mm-hmm.And they're fantastic for getting,like ideas started for, I think they're more of a thinking tool than they are like an output tool.Yeah.But th those, they're never gonna be unless you get really,really good at writing prompts.And that's a, that's a skill set in itself, right?That's a creative skill in itself.Total other side like conversation around mid journey and, and artists.Yeah, of course.Mid journey.Yeah.My same best friend who's a graphic graphic designer has really like dove into the ai, like the mid journey world.And what she's getting really good at is, is creating prompts to produce art that is like stunning and I've tried it.I'm shitty at it.Like I, I can't produce anything.Wonderful.So there's like this whole other skillset set that's gonna develop mm-hmm.On, on the creative side, and you're creating something new that is just developed in different ways.But on the writing side, I really believe like, because of what you've just described around the process and how important the process is.That, you know, these would become handy tools for cranking out stuff that none of us, it's like designers and logos.Nobody wants to make logos.So on the writing side, whatever the equivalent of that is.Yeah, yeah.They're gonna be really like, I think they're great idea starters.I think they're great ways to get past that sort of initiation anxiety, but I just don't.I think the, the trauma and the panic and the, you know, the lobbying mm-hmm.And all of the, you know, the pearl clutching around these,you know, technologies, killing creativity is just false.It's creating new economies for creativity.So,Absolutely.If anything, it makes it faster and more efficient.Like once you know, in the right places if you know how to use it.Yeah.Yeah, you just get your job done faster.I found that I'm using it mostly for the, the sort of fleshing out stage,especially when I am writing content of all sort of do not that strategic outline, you know, what do we wanna say?And then it can take that outline to a full blog.You know, like that.And then you go through and you polish and you edit and, and you make it exact, you know.Perfect.Yeah, and it just makes stuff so much faster.It's, it's great.It's like, okay, I can write a blog in, you know, half the time or, or third the time.Yeah.That's great.Yeah, I think, I think there are a lot of people that need to hear that.All right.There's one question I ask all my, all my.Yes.And I would love to hear your perspective on it.What's the difference between what we sort of hear in the online business world or the business world in general?What's the difference between that and what's real about being a business owner?Yeah, that's a very good question.I think that, For me, what's different about what the, you know, the perceived and the real is just how possible it is.And I know that, you know, a lot of us listening are already business owners, so we know that already.But I think a lot of people who are, who are outside the business or entrepreneurial world don't realize just how very possible it is.And I do think that part of that is because of the way we often present and talk about our businesses.We're, of course we're trying to present ourselves as, as experts and, you know, professionals and all of that.Of course you are nothing wrong with that,but I think from the outside it can give this idea that you have to like already be an expert and you have to be like super professional and, and have all these credentials and be like really, really something to be able to start a business.And what I've found is you,you can absolutely just.Start and, and figure stuff out and learn what you need to learn and, and start getting out there.And all of us have skills that other people need and that, you know, often are things that we take for granted.So yeah, I think that that's, I think that the, the way we talk about business makes it look a lot more challenging than, of course it's challenging, but make it look tr harder to get into than it actually is.Listen, I, I immersed myself into a new industry in January.Like, yeah, no background in it whatsoever.No idea.Like I worked with a couple of clients in the industry, but I.Totally brand new industry.And I've already gotten to the point where the, like the number one platform in the industry is asking me to be like the face of their, their lives stuff.Wow.Congrats and everything like that.Yeah.Cause you just have to like immerse yourself, right?You just, yeah.All of this is possible.It's so possible if you just become a student.Right?For sure.Yeah, for sure.I love that.Okay, we're coming up on the end of the interview.I've loved having you here.Can you tell our listeners where they can find you?Yeah, so I have a website.My business name is CEK Copywriting so you can check that out.Cce k copywriting.com.And I'm also on LinkedIn.That's where I hang out on social media and happy to, to connect with anybody and, and chat.Awesome.Well, we'll put all of your links in the show notes so that people can find you and carry on the conversation.And I definitely appreciate everything that we've touched on today.So we're gonna wrap it up.I'm so happy that we had the opportunity to chat with Cleoniki today to hear more about how her business came to be, her experiences along the way.And what the future of the business entails.And thank you so much for tuning into this episode of The Real People Real Business Show, where we get the real entrepreneurial stories and journeys that you can relate to the show notes, resources, and links from this episode are available on my website and social media platforms.If you've enjoyed today's content,I would love for you to give us a review on whatever platform you're on to help us share these genuine stories with an even bigger audience.Until next time, keep building.Keep dreaming and keep being real.