Wil Reynolds - Playing to Win in Business

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Welcome to the Real People Real Business Show.My name is Stephanie Hayes, and I'm a business strategist who helps experienced business owners design asset-based business models that help them set up for growth and exit.I love to speak with like-minded entrepreneurs to share their real stories in the gritty details on how they have navigated their own way through.On this show, you won't hear about the glamorized entrepreneurship journeys that you see online and you won't be told how to make.Six figures in six weeks.Instead, you can expect to hear real vulnerable and inspiring stories that you can relate to that have helped create the foundation for each of our guests businesses today.I'm so excited to welcome Will Reynolds.Will is the founder and CEOof Seer Interactive, one of the most highly regarded digital marketing agencies in the us.A former teacher with a knack for advising Will is passionate about helping people in businesses grow and has helped.Fortune 500 companies develop s e o and digital marketing strategies since 1999.That is OG Will is a sought after keynote speaker, averaging10 to 20 keynotes every year.He's captivated many audiences with his deep understanding of digital marketing in his unique perspective on how to unlock its potential.Through his tireless efforts Will has shown that he is not just a digital marketing expert, but a true leader who's committed to making a positive impact on the world around him.Welcome to the show Will,and thanks so much for taking the time to share your story today.No, thanks for having me.I'm looking forward to it.That's quite an intro, and I also understand that there's a really significant philanthropic side of your business as well.So tell me a little bit about how we ended up here and.How important that was for you to develop that out in, in alongside sort of the, the revenue generating side of the business?Well,dare I say it was the catalyst for starting the business.So I, it was, uh, 2000, 2000, uh,and I was working at a Fortune500 company and, um, I was doing digital marketing there and I kind of realized that it wasn't the right.Bright spot for me.Um, it was a little too slow.Fortune 500 in insurance.You know, it's gonna be even slower than a typical Fortune 500.And, um, I started knocking on doors at companies, local companies, trying to find a job.That's how I got my first job in digital in 99, is I just picked some companies I thought were doing cool things and I, and I knocked on their doors and I'm like, I wanna work here.Right?And that's how I got my first job.So when this job wasn't really going the way that I had hoped, I said, I'm just gonna start knocking on doors around the Philly area and say, Hey, I wanna work here.Work first.Time should work again.Well, it didn't, I knocked on doors for probably about 18 months.Um, and in that time one of my cousins got sick, ended up at a children's hospital and I went to go visit him and I was like, man, you know, it's pretty cool that there's these people here that are volunteering their time after their jobs,before their jobs to spend time to take a sick child's mind off of their illness.And having a background in teaching,you know, and working with youth, but somehow getting into digital marketing, I longed for that and I missed that a bit.And I started volunteering at the Children's Hospital, um,on Wednesdays from six to nine.And, uh, after doing a couple weeks of that, I went into my boss's office and I said to her, I said, Hey, can I work through my lunch so I can leave at four o'clock and make sure that I get to my volunteer assignment on time?Instead of leaving at five and having like an hour, sometimes an hour and 10 minute commute.And by the time I gotta the parking garage and got checked in, I was showing up a little bit later than I wanted to, um, be there for these kids.And, uh, she was like, I don't think we can do that this quarter.I got a lot going on and uh, when she told me that I called my mom that day, I was like, I think I'm gonna have to quit and start my own thing.Because, you know, I just wanna put good into the world while I do my job.And I found that I couldn't find a job knocking on doors and my current boss would not let me kind of be flexible in the time that I needed to be able to do the things I wanted to do.So then I started the business just like that.Yeah, pretty much.I mean, I was, I was doing some consulting work for a few clients, but I tell folks,you know, I think so often I'm so glad,um, Your podcast is one that's directed on real things, um, because I'm like,look, you know, It, it, it was just like,it kind of fell on my lap to be honest.Like I would've built Sr inside of somebody else's business had somebody just actually hired me.It wasn't like I was like, I need to run my own business.I think that's kind of an overly glorified thing.Like it's hard.Um, it's lonely, it's hard,uh, you know, there's nobody to hide behind when you fail.I mean, you can try, but it's a lot harder and it's a lot easier to be, my boss won't let me do.That's why I'm not where I want to be.It's a lot harder.I have to look at yourself in the mirror and be like, my competitors are selling stuff.I'm not.Maybe it's me.It's harder to have that realization and wake up every morning, take those punches and get back on the horse.You know, I.It is.And I, you know, I love entrepreneurship and I'm also cursed in the, in the sense that I, I can't not be an entrepreneur.And, and so, you know, it, it's hard,but I think, I also think the trade-offs,like once you get into a place where you're comfortable, you know, the ropes, you know what to expect, and,and all of that stuff, all of that uncertainty becomes, you know, Tenable.You know, I wouldn't trade it for the world, but it's, it's not for the faint of heart.And it's not for anyone who is uncomfortable with ambiguity.No, I don't, I don't even know if I'd ever do it again.Um, I.You know, for instance, like how often are we in, how often are we, are you probably interviewing somebody or whatever, and they're like, oh, you know,we talk about serial entrepreneurship and like, oh, they've started four businesses or five, and I'm like,I'm glad that I got to one run that I didn't have to start another one.Right.Um, I try to reinvent my business within my business to keep it relevant, obviously.Um, but yeah, I don't, I.You know, cause there's been opportunities for people to acquire the business, whatnot.People are interested, they come around kicking the tires and um,you know, people are like, well,oh, if you sold it, you know, you could then start another business.I'm like, I don't wanna do that.Like, what makes you think that?That's the assumption.And it's interesting as an entrepreneur how that's the default.Oh, well you could sell this and you could build another business.I'm like, I don't know what I'm doing and feel like I got really lucky and that the timing was right and things of that nature, and I put the right executives around me.I'm not sure that I could just reinvent another business that worked out pretty well.Again, I really don't,I'm of two minds about that.I, I mean, Some of it is timing and luck, but I, I would expect, you know, if I got to know you better, I would, I would learn that you actually have pretty great intuition and, um,that makes you a good business owner.But I, I love that perspective because, you know, you get into the entrepreneurship world and you're expected to behave in a certain way and to like certain things and to want and to be, you know, crazy about.And.I have all the education and the skills to be a big time,c e o and run a big company.I couldn't think of something I'd rather less do or less.Less rather do whatever the words are.What you mean, you know,that doesn't appeal to me.I like, I like small, I like nimble, I like startups.I like, you know, I like.Autonomy.I like my to own my time.And those are the things that I've, you know, come to realize are very important to me.So let's hear the whole story.So, you know, you didn't just start up Seer, and then all of a sudden it was successful.You, so, you know, how did it, how did it happen?You, you, you settled, settled on digital marketing because that was what you had experience in,but Well, it's more than just what I have experience in.It's like, to me, digital marketing in many ways is like a sport.Oh.So like there's a scoreboard.You know if you did better or not every day, and there's no hiding behind the numbers on the scoreboard, right?Hey, we set out to help you optimize your website and rank for these keywords.Six months later, you're in the same spot.I must have missed something, right?Like the ability to take that responsibility on.And, and own your wins and losses without hiding behind other people for them,is something that is very fun to me.So it feels a little bit like a sport, to be honest.Mm, I love that.I love that perspective.And who were, who were the first clients?Uh, I just heard back from one of 'em the other day.He's asking for some help with, um, he needs the recommendation or a referral.Um, but I worked with the, the ones that stand out to me are Barbara Baja, who ran an interior design firm in Philadelphia, agile cat,which was a PR firm in Philadelphia.Uh, a hair salon, Ziri hair salon,and an online art website for artists to kind of post their stuff on.Um, those were probably my first four-ish clients.Ooh.That was one of the first projects I worked on in the internet marketing world as well in 1998 was an online auction site.An online art auction site.No way.Oh yeah.It was all the rage at that time.Yeah.It's funny though, right, because like what's interesting is this site, um,we did a little small project for this guy 20 years later, and I'm like, man,like you didn't get knocked out by the Wix of the world and all of those.It's like there's still a market for there to be an art.Hosting company for artists to put their art into the world, and he's still rocking and rolling.I'm really proud of him.That's what I think is so cool about the digital marketing world is that like you come across all of these crazy businesses that you would never have even thought there was a market for.And in the online world it's like, you know, there's, there's this hyper interest and people.Organize around communities and I, I actually think that's a, that's one of the most important parts of digital marketing is recognizing what people organize around and leveraging communities.Yeah.It's like there's, I, I've always found it interesting, one of the most fun things about working with clients is you're like, you make money.How?Like, you walk in thinking they make money one way and you're like, oh my God, you make money that way.Like there's a business there.They're like, there's a massive business there.Right.Yeah, I remember working with a client as a consultant who had a pallet company.No, no, no.Wasn't even a pallet company.His company was, uh, made devices to track where pallets were wooden pallets.They're so expensive and there are such a big expense for shipping companies and for people or for companies who ship goods.They wanna know where they are because on the whole, It adds up,right?Yeah.That's interest.But here's this multimillion Yeah.Multi-million dollar company making tracking devices for wooden pallets.Who knew right?Who would, okay, so you had, you, you started with some initial customers and you, you, you grew, I mean, 1999, I mean,we're, we're about the same generation.And 1999 is, uh, Quite a, quite a few years ago.So tell me about growth.Tell me about the journey.Tell me about what's kept you, uh, kept you going for this long, because I love what you say about, you know, building new businesses inside my existing business.Yeah.So let's see.So I would say, um, I was never good at sales.Um, although people have tried to put me into sales roles.Um, I think I'm gonna be authentic.So if I authentically believe in something, I'm going to be behind it if I don't.So I authentically believed in the product and what we were putting out,so therefore it was easy to sell it.But if I have to sell just something,I'm not usually good at that.So, um, working with our clients,I mean, for the first, oh my God,like I started in August of 2002.I would say my first probably like 60, 70clients were almost all just referrals.And you know, I think one of the things that I did is I left people with this feeling that I cared more about the money they gave me than somebody who's like, yeah, I've started three businesses and now I'm in the search world.And it's like, this seems like a great opportunity.And for me, I'm like,this shit is like a sport.We're now on the same team.We're gonna go kill the other team.And when somebody uses that kinda language, you're like, I think this guy actually cares about winning for me, versus the,you know, oh, I'm out of hours.You know, like, nobody wants to hear that.Like, oh, we're on the team, team.Everyone wants to say that.But then the minute you're like, oh,I have 40 hours this week, or, oh, we,your contract is six hours a month,and I'm now at six hours, like my style was like, that's not a team.Right.That is a, you're, you're more like a mercenary.If I'm gonna actually call you a partner and be a teammate with you,I might have to go eight hours deep this month and tell you like, Hey,like it's been three months in a row.I've had to work eight hours every month.So like, I think we have to up the contract, but I'm not gonna stop in the middle of the game and be like, outta hours.Like, I know it's the third quarter, but I'm outta hours.You know?It's like that doesn't, and then people wonder why it's so hard to get business.And it's like, well, it's not as for me, my story.It wasn't that hard for me to get new clients because each client I got, I left with this feeling that I actually gave a shit about them and I was gonna work hard for them, and I wasn't gonna pull punches on hours and other things that create unnecessary friction, right?You save a couple of hours by managing your time and having boundaries of protecting yourself,but then you lose six referrals.So then you have to go hire a salesperson that's gonna dig into your margins anyway.And then you have to have one-on-ones with, you have to have more time away from the business on.So for me, it was like, Nope.So like that really catapulted us and just has kind of been our life's blood for most of the journey of Seer, um, is,you know, very few people in sales and,um, more people in taking care of our clients and making sure that we deliver.Um, and that's kind of how I got, that's kind of how the thing actually kind of got started.And then, you know, I would say just got to a point where I started recognizing that I was more of a liability than an asset as a C E O and running the business.And that was probably at like 45, 50 people.And then I'm like, oh,I'm gonna mess this up.And a lot of other people also could see that because I like playing the game, it doesn't make me a good coach.Right?It doesn't make me a good gm.Like, so, like they're like, you get the most value out of this guy when he's playing the game.Not necessarily when he's hitting up in the rafters, you know, figuring out how to manage the resources of the organization.So very early on, um, I recognized that about myself, and then I promoted Crystal who runs the business into that role.She's been with me for 12, 13 years now.And, uh, and as a result, I got to focus on the errors where I have strength and where work is a game.And for her, that is the operations.You know, she loves being in that, all the chaos that I can create in a business she loves trying to make order of that chaos.And it's been a great yin and yang.I love that.And, you know, I work, I grew up in the IT industry, in the technology space, and I own a software company.And, and, uh, you know, I do consulting inside of the, um, the technology space.And it's so common that, uh, Technical resources get promoted to management positions because they're good technical resources, but they're terrible managers.They're terrible people, people.And then they spend a year or two in that role and they get lost because they've lost all their, their, like their proximity to the technical work,which identi they identified with.And so they don't feel confident there.They're not doing a great job of being a manager and they hate the work, and like everything they identify with is now gone.So you've got this disgruntled person who's supposed to be leading a team of people or leading an organization.And they, they just don't wanna be there, and they've lost touch with what they are really, really good at.So, I, I like hearing you say that because I think a lot of CEOs end up in that position too, where they started the company because they had some, they had a skill or they had a, a proximity to the work that was being done and they end up, you know, being a terrible leader because that's just not what they do well.Yeah.Oh, you know, one thing I skipped over there is, um, I stopped growing the business once we got to 10 people.So I decided I didn't want to grow, um, past 10 people.I wanted to be a, um, cause I, I really enjoy working with people like, That's the other side of it is I knew I could not be a solo entrepreneur solopreneur.Cause I get so much joy out of watching other people grow in the same way that as a teacher like you,like watching someone come into your classroom with a certain set of skills and then leave your classroom with.With significantly, hopefully more skills than they came in with, right?And they're able to solve problems and think in new ways they weren't doing when they came in your classroom.So for me, SEER is also like my classroom in many ways in which I get an opportunity to work with like some pretty talented people that make me sharper.Make me smarter and then hopefully like them being around these people at this time helps them to also feel like, you know, when their time is up, that they have really improved as a result of being in our quote unquote classroom.Um, but then what I realized is, uh, I'm addicted to talent and watching people grow.So when the two things ran into each other of me wanting to be a small business where I really knew my people and we were really strong, ran into.My, like, I'm not helping my people to grow anymore.Like they're gonna be here for two or three years kind of doing the same or similar work and like they want new challenges.So now my OGs are gonna probably leave as they should because they're like, will I love here?I love the ethos, I love what we do.I love how much time we put into the community, but like, I'm doing the same job for the same clients with the same thing that I was doing four years ago, and that's when I decided which of these two things is gonna win my desire to have a smaller business where I know people and I can be really close to the services and the product, or am I gonna be a, a place where we grow?Growth creates chaos, and then that gives my people new challenges to work on.And once I decided that,I didn't look back.But those are two important,um, parts about the journey that I skipped over the first time.So when you decided to grow, that was at odds with your, you know,your, some of your values and Yeah.You knew you did well in the organization.So what was the strategy there?Like what did you, you had that insight, so what did you put in place to enable that to happen?Cause obviously it did, right?Yeah.I hired Crystal.Okay.Right.I mean, like, um, so many of my advisors over the years, cause like,you know, I'm trying, we're trying secret sauce, like how did this happen?Right.Um, and almost all of my advisors are like, you know what?You're really good at will letting stuff go in the sense of you can build something and then let somebody else run it.And they're like 90% of the entrepreneurs we work with, like they'll say that,but when it really comes time to let it go, they are digging all in that person.They promoted stuff and yada, yada, yada.And as a result, that person's like, well, I'm not really running anything because at the end of the day, Everything that I do is second guessed or questioned or whatever.And, and then that creates that dynamic.So I think that's probably my, I would say it's probably my superpower is, um, I'm very hands-on in the business, so like, don't get it twisted, like I'm very hands-on.But when it comes to the operations and running the business, I completely trust Crystal to make the decisions she needs to make to move us forward.Cuz they're gonna be better decisions than I would've made.I have really good short term vision.Uh, so I can just, like, I, you know,I'm one of those people like, you know,I'll just out, I'll try to outwork you.Um, but that's not always the right solution, right?Sometimes if you had a longer term vision, you wouldn't be in this place where you're on the treadmill for 60hours, uh, in a week or whatever, right?And crystal's got so much better operational long-term vision.Whereas I have really badly long-term vision when it comes to operationalizing a business.And then I've got great long-term vision on where an industry might end up.But, you know, um, whereas Crystal is more likely to be like not as strong on the, on the, where's the long term or where the industry's probably gonna go.So that's how we compliment each other, and I think that's why I've been successful.I think the company, we wouldn't be here talking if it wasn't for her.So that command and control, that, that keeping everything tight, I mean that's all driven from fear and uncertainty.And you know, coming back to what we talked about originally, uh, I think most successful entrepreneurs are, are those people who are.Comfortable with uncertainty and okay with, um, a little bit of fear and can navigate that.And I've worked with, uh, entrepreneurs and CEOs who, you know, as soon as things don't quite perform the way that they wanted to, they go right back to what they're comfortable with and they'll start reinventing the operational side of their business.What they really need to focus on is marketing or, you know, building new audiences and that sort of thing.But they'll spin and spin and spin on this.The thing that feels like they can control rather than, you know.So I think an entrepreneur's best asset is their ability to take risks.And I don't mean uncalculated risks, I mean the comfort with uncertainty and the comfort with a little bit of fear.Oh yeah.I mean, uncertainty's,uncertainty's a pretty big.Part of it, which is why I think I've always been like super frugal.You know?Um, one of the things I always say,um, I tell people is like, you know, I think entrepreneurship's just so phony.So, um, for me, I'm like, I, the house that I bought and moved into and Sead did a million in revenue.I lived in that house up until SEER did 30 million in revenue.And like the car that I had when we hit 1 million in revenue was the same car that I had up until we were like28 million in revenue when I had kids and I had to like, you know, 27 or whatever the number is, and I had to like get a different type of car.And it's like, and now it's the Bugatti, right?Of course.Um, no, I'm still driving a used 10 year old car.Um, but my point is, is that, I've been able to mini mitigate some of the fear.A lot of times, some of the fear probably comes from, well,what if this thing doesn't work?Or, what if this doesn't happen,or what if that doesn't happen?Then like, all my work has been like,you know, all my value is tied up in the business, and I'm like, Nope.Like I always made sure that I lived a lifestyle.That like, was like, oh yeah.After a few years running the business, solid ground, solid footing, like, okay, me and my family are probably gonna be pretty good.Um, which then enables me to do more for the other folks that I work with and the community in which I live.Cause I'm not trying to level up my lifestyle every two seconds.Yeah.That, that humble sort of pragmatism, I think that that gets lost too, because when.It's the freedom of thought, like,you know how cool it is to wake up and be like, oh, like yeah, my house ain't great, but I paid it off.So like now my biggest and my car may not be the best car, but it's paid off.So now my biggest bill every month is like, what my, like internet bill and then like, you know, now I can send my kids to private school.Um, so that bill's not small, but outside of that it's like, you know, so then you can, maybe you can take more risks.Maybe you don't hold onto the ledge as closely and that's tightly.Cuz you're like, well this doesn't go right.It's not like I'm gonna risk like, you know, my ability to put food on the table anymore.You know?Yeah.So I think that's part of it too.Let's talk about the business a little bit.So, so what have you grown into in terms of clients, in terms of services?Like what's, what's been working for you?Um, if you look at the story arc, so like, you know, last two years, I think freaking nuts.Um, in terms of like, I'm not happy with where the business is the last two years, but like, I've been at this since August of 2002, so it's 21 years we had.19 years in a row, a double digit growth.Um, and I mean, there were some serious years where it was 30,40, um, in there, mixed in.And then as the numbers get bigger,obviously you start getting down to the elevens and tens and thirteens.Um, but like, it's been a, it's, it's been a ride.Um, and so for me it's been a real like, It's been a real,like, how did this happen?Like, I still kind of wake up sometimes and I'm like, how did this happen?Right?It's not like I, I don't work 80 hour weeks, so I'm not one of them people.I don't work 60 hour weeks.Um, unless I'm just really excited about something, at which point I'm playing the game.I'm not like being told I gotta like, oh, you gotta work 60 hours.It's like, no, no, no.If I'm working a 60 hour a week,which never really happens, um,but if I am it's cuz I'm so into something that I'm so jazzed about that I can't pull myself away from it.So I just never had that journey that was like, oh, you know, I'll work 80 hours for myself to not have to work 40 hours for somebody else.Like, I don't know how I got here.Like Stephanie, I'm gonna be honest,like, I'm like, I still sometimes like, eh, I don't know how I got here.I don't know what happened.Um, but somehow it worked out really well,um, for me and hopefully it will work out really well for a lot of other folks too.Cause my focus now is just on creating wealth for others and impacting my community because I'm kind of at a point where I don't need any more money.Um, so therefore it's like, well, why go to work?And you're like, cause I love the job and I think I owe it to the people that helped me to get to that point, to help bring them up and get them to that point as well.So,Amazing.What, what, tell me about the services.Tell me about what Sears is offering now that may have evolved over time.Oh.Um, so we're really into data these days.Um, so, you know, search, search marketing, s e o, paid search analytics,it's all, to me, it's all a data problem and it's hyper freaking siloed.So, you know, if you've got an SEO O consultant and you say, I got a hundred thousand, what should I do with it?They're like, SEO O and then you get a paid search consultant and you're like, I have a hundred thousand dollars.What should I do?They're gonna go.Paid search and you have a hundred thousand dollars, you go to an analytics person's not gonna go, we should do analytics.And it's like, you know what?How about we bring all the data together from all those places to help our clients better figure out where's the best place to put your next dollar?Because none of these people,even the leaders in my company can be technically trusted.They'd be like, you know what?You should probably cut my budget in half.Like, here's an example.Seo, there's all these rich results all over the web, all over the, all over the search results now, right?Which means it's not just 10 blue links anymore, where if you're number one, you get 30% of the clicks.Number two, there's all these ads above it.You can't tell their ads anymore.So I'm constantly on the road saying, yeah, I run a company that does a ton of SEO work.The r oi of that work has gone down.Like, why can't we as a, as an industry admit that once they put all these extra answers and stuff around our results,they became harder for people to find?Therefore fewer people are clicking on that.So therefore, the economic value that we drive, if you were charging a hundred thousand dollars and before being number one, got you 30% clickthrough rate, you're still charging a hundred thousand dollars.Now when it's a 10% clickthrough rate, that's fine, but the economics have shifted.Why can't we talk about that?And I think that that honesty about these kind of things has also been,um, very helpful in terms of how people look at us in the industry.Like those guys will tell you what's up.And the way we're bringing the data together, we're able to kind of show clients where things should be moved in and out of other things.Agnostically to the leader of the division who's probably incentivized.To say like, Hey, if I grow my division, then I give higher bonuses,more raises, more this, more that.And it's like, well, is that the right thing to do for the client?Data says, no, we should probably cut this contract in half and then redeploy it somewhere else.Even if that's outside of the agency and it's with another agency partner,like we wanna use the data to tell us that hey, we shouldn't have this money.This should go to this person cuz they're being hyper efficient with those dollars and I can't do it anymore.Right?Like that kind of thing.That's really catapulted us who.Who's the best customer to leverage and get leverage from your services?Ooh, the lower the politics, the more value you'll get out of it.So we're at the point now where our clients are huge.Like every big company in the planet we pretty much have worked with.Um, again, what makes me proud of that is, let me make sure I think of them.Top three all came to us.All came to us.We did not hunt them down at trade shows and stuff like that.We didn't come up with campaigns to get them as clients.They all found us through networks,alumni, referrals, et cetera,which always makes me super proud.Um, but the, the clients that take the most advantage are the ones who are, um, who have a vision at the top as well that is integrated.Right.Like if, if a CEO says, Hey, we are going to our cmo, or somebody says We are going to do X, and everybody underneath of me has to line up with that.If we're in at that level and the CMOs bought in, our CEO is bought in, then they will move the politics of the organization.If I'm brought in by an SEO and I go,Hey, you know what, SEO's got less value.They're like, ah.I don't wanna hear that because that's how I show my value to the company.And if you tell me that my value is lower, then what the heck does that mean?I don't want your tools.Right?And then what happens?The company is just overpaying for something because the C M O and C E O may not know that this dynamic is happening and that the value of that ranking has dropped cuz of what's around it.So let's invest in those areas, right?Cause that's coming up.So I think, um, those clients that have a vision from the top of being integrated and being smart and being customer focused, so often people want rankings, right?I'm like, screw a ranking.Like we should help drive people to the right outcome.To the business, and I want to track that those outcomes are actually happening, right?Yeah.Now, not every client needs that, but a lot of clients are like, oh my god, a breath of fresh air, somebody who's trying to track your work down to how many leads I got, versus, Hey, we're number three.And then I go, well wait, being number three had one value six years ago has a different value today.So if I just keep saying I'm number three, are you still rooted in six years?Ago's value of number three?Because maybe that's not what,it's real isn't worth the, the juice isn't worth the squeeze and.Damn.It's nice to hear a search person say that.And are you working mostly with large organizations with their own marketing teams or are you taking on any little small businesses?Is there a different offering for them?Um, So we're using a lot of AI now to try to figure out how we can take the things that make us unique and bring it slightly down market.Um, the big players in our space, um, you know, a lot of them went out and got funding.You know, a lot of my competitors, you know, when we were 200 people and they were 200 people, they went on a path that was like, oh, we're gonna go race.We're gonna go get private equity and we're gonna raise money.And then they bought four other agencies, put 'em together, and now they're like 1500 people.Right?And we're still like, no, we're still 200.You know, so, so like people that took that path.Well, all the economics that work for the that path are pretty much massive companies.So one of the things that's interesting, and it's a challenge and a struggle, is back when we were all competing, it was one thing.They went out and got 50,60, 70, $80 million to go acquire a bunch of companies.And now they're also targeting the same clients that we both used to target, but they've got resources behind 'em that I may not, right.So as a result, really focusing on going deeper with the clients we have and making sure that those relationships are super solid.Cuz those guys just got money, tons of money to go out and just grow.Right, and the people that can afford them and all that money that was spent to grow them are the biggest companies out there.So we really believe that there's like this mid-market right below the market leader.People that are like, I have I, I'll never have the same amount of money that they're gonna have to mar do marketing.So therefore I need to find a scrappier team that can find a way to do more with less.And that's where we kind of fit in.Love it.I love it.And, uh, is there an offering for a small business for, it depends on what,how you define small.I think the lowest offering that we have right now is probably in the tune of like 70 grand a year.Yeah.Um, for SEO and, you know, and then the contracts go way up from there depending on what the complex Yeah.Yeah.I love it.So I have a question that I ask every, all the guests on my show.I mean, we are, we talk about, you know, the real, the real stuff, right?The real stuff behind being an entrepreneur and a business owner.What's the difference between what we hear out there online and in the business world, and what's real about being a business owner?Like pick one, right?It's not even stuff we don't know.It's stuff we choose not to listen to.Like most of us are gonna fail.A lot of people have scrapped relationships.A lot of people's kids don't fucking know 'em.Like, because, you know, you were out crushing it, right?Like you got two kids, you can only get two likes.You got 50,000 followers.You're like, ah, look at all these likes when I'm out crushing it.So I'm gonna do more crushing at content and less like, you know,reading the story at night content.So, um, So, like for me, one of the things that I do whenever I get in like a, a mode of like, oh man,these people raise all this money and they're gonna be, they're gonna be in a position to beat us or whatever.A lot of times I take their press releases where they talk about how big they're gonna be, and I have them come back into my inbox like a year or two later.And what you find is what entrepreneurs typically say they're gonna do, never fucking happens.But what we do is we compare ourselves to these people when they're like, oh, we just grown.We just landed 30 new strategic accounts.We're getting ready to go to 4,000 people in.You know, two months or 12 months.And if you actually don't just consistently consume that information,but do the actual follow-up work to check back in at a year or two or three.I just did it this morning.You know, there was a company that was like kind of on my ass, a local, uh,company that were doing a good job and they had gotten like 140 people when we were about 120 and something sprung up and got them on my radar today.And I looked back and I was like, oh,they're 35 and there's nothing wrong with being 35 from a hundred and something.Like there was no press release on that.There was no information on that.But the press releases come out when we're talking about what we're gonna do in the future.So then as a competitor, all we do is consume this information from our competitors, which can make us feel so insignificant.We're not growing enough, we're not doing enough, we're not doing that.But then when you actually take the time to go back at all those things that made you feel that way, and how many of them turned out, you'd be surprised.You just chugged along doing you.And did just fine.Right?So, um, so that's one of the things I think is, you know, learn to revisit the stuff that makes you a little jealous.Learn to revisit the things that make you feel worse about yourself and the business you built, and see if it actually turned out.Like, some people might call that being a hater.Um, for me it's more grounding in the sense of like, yeah, yeah, I get that.Okay, will, when you keep consuming this content and everybody's crushing it, if you never, ever look back at where they are from that moment, you'll never realize that most of them fail.Just like we already know.Most of the businesses are gonna fail.They're not gonna work out the way we thought.They're not gonna grow the way we thought.Um, but that's just me.And I think it's, you know, taking away from that, it's not just about,you know, be okay with failing.It's like, be okay with going slow.Right.Be okay with throttling.Throttling your growth to whatever feels comfortable for you at the time.We can't do that.We can't do that.Yes you can.You know, it's like, God forbid you listen to your fucking heart and go, I don't want to be at this pace of growth.Yeah.You know, it's like said by like two people I feel like on the planet, but I think it's important.Well, yeah,it's important.I tried to give all my clients permission to say that and like the, the realization when they do is just amazing.And they're like, okay, well I can just, I can be here.And you know, also the recognition that.You don't have to be the person that takes your company to exponential growth.You could be okay being the person that takes it here, and then that's the end of your life cycle with the business, and it's okay to then sell it or hand it off, or you can take yourself outta the business and let someone else take it from there.And that's also perfectly fine and totally legitimate because.Not everybody wants to be the c e O of a very large company.You might have been that visionary that get that plants the seed gets everything started, right?Yeah.And you know what I, only thing we don't calculate is the costs of our growth.You gotta calculate the cost of your growth.That's less time at home,potentially less time focused with your spouse and whatnot, you know?And for me it's really dangerous cause I really love my work.So I remember one time on a cross country drive with my wife, I was just like, how many days in a month could I be gone?Where we don't travel as a unit.Yeah.You know, and it took four hours of a cross-country drive for me to get it out of her cuz she didn't want to talk about it.Right.Um, cuz she's super supportive and um, when I finally got it out of her, it was like, okay, cool.And then I knew I had a boundary,so now when things came along I had something to hold it up against.Yeah.Well, do I really wanna ask Nora to go over.My normal number for this trip,I'm like, mm, probably not.It's not really that important.Whereas otherwise my default is like, yeah, let's go.Let's do it.Let's do that.Yeah.So I think also knowing how to put like a governor so to speak,on your, on the things that excites you about the business.Cuz growth will come at a cost and you gotta know that that cost is worth it.Cuz it usually comes at a cost of things like mental health.Depression.I had a friend that went through deep depression as a result of things in the business.Um, you know, time with your family, wife, kids, whatever.You know, people pass away and you're like, oh, I wish I'd have spent more time with them.Well, no, you don't.You wanted to grow the business to be 30 million in three years.Well, that's what you prioritized.So you can't look back and be like, I wish I had of you had the control to do it.You just didn't do it.Yeah,that I think that coming back, one of the things I, I do with my clients before we get into any sort of business strategy is we, we talk about who they are and, and like reground back to what they actually want.Because a lot of people will grow a business based on what they think they should do.That they've seen other people do, and they're building a business that is not aligned with who they are as individuals,how they like to work, how they're, you know, how they're best at working and, uh,what they're most interested in doing, and what a value system looks like for them.Like all that stuff, you build a business that's out of alignment with all of that, well, it's not gonna grow anyway.Right,or it does.Then you just look back and you're like,this isn't what I thought it was gonna be.I finally hit that number.I finally got to that destination,and why am I still not happy?Yeah, exactly.And the scary part is you do that,then you just default to like build a new thing, keep growing,and it's like, no, no, no, no.Take the time back to do an inventory of how did that happen?How did you get to a point where you were in control of something and you built something, which would you, which is what you thought your dream was and you were off.And that's where you gotta do the real work, you know, to figure out like, what am I really all about?Uh, without that you're not grounded and then you're just gonna follow the grow at all costs, cuz that's what you hear the most.Yeah, yeah,we're coming up on time.Um, I could probably talk to you for another hour.Um, can you tell our listeners how they can find you?Oh, I always just say Google me, man.My name is Will Reynolds.Like, you know, I, I work in search if it's Will with one L, but you should still be able to find me.Um, So I would say like, you know, check me out there.Um, I think my blog on my medium, I try to share failure a lot in there.Like a time when I can, employee blew like 200 grand of our money and I had to repay a client back.Um, things that are, you know,Pretty heavy things related to like, you know, d n I.Um, and like, you know,how do we draw lines?Like I have a son that is mixed that doesn't look black.Um, and it's like, okay, well then does he count in your metrics when you're going through and counting?Like, what does that look like?What does that world look like?So I try to put stuff out there that isn't just rah rah, but is much more like, or like the fact that we, um,you know, we decided to pay a minimum salary of $65,000 to everybody and like, okay, that sounded great.Um, that also caused me to have to do some layoffs.This most recent round,like it was like, oh shit.Well now had I not done that, like I wouldn't have been in this position where like I'm like, damn, I'm overstaffed,but like what's, what's my belief system?What's my ethos?You know?And it's like, no, no, no.We're not gonna sit here and underpay people when we have an opportunity to pay them more.And might I have to deal with those repercussions later?Sure.But those are the kind of things that I share on my medium.Um, so I think that's probably for the entrepreneurial set, it's probably the best place to try to be like, damn, this guy's talking about real hard stuff.And I think that's what we need to do more of.We know to each other.I'm gonna go and subscribe now and we'll put all the links and everything into the show notes so you can find Will and all of his, the good stuff.Obviously, if you've been listening for the last half hour, you would know that there are nuggets and gems of wisdom coming out of, uh, This interview and I bet there is just a ton more on the blog.So we're gonna wrap it up.I'm so happy that we had the opportunity to chat with Will today to hear more about how his business came to be, his experiences along the way, and what the future of the business entails.And thank you so much for tuning into this episode of Real People Real Business,where we get the real entrepreneurial stories and journeys that you can relate to the show notes, resources and links from this episode are available on my website and social media platforms.And if you've enjoyed today's content, I'd love for you to give us a review on whatever platform you're on to help us share these genuine stories with an even bigger audience.Until next time, keep building,keep dream and keep being real.