Tim Kachuriak - Marketing for a Cause

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Welcome to the Real People Real Business Show.My name is Stephanie Hayes, and I'm a business strategist who helps experience business owners design asset-based business models that set them up for growth and exit.I love to speak with like-minded entrepreneurs to share their real stories and the gritty details on how they have navigated their own way through.On this show, you won't hear about the glamorized entrepreneurship journeys that you see online, and you won't be told how to make six figures in six weeks.Instead, you can expect to hear real, vulnerable and inspiring stories that you can relate to that have helped create the foundation for each of our guests businesses.Today, I am so excited to welcome Tim Kachuriak.Tim is the founder in Chief Innovation and Optimization Officer for Next After a fundraising Research Lab Consultancy and training institute that works with charities, nonprofits, and NGOs to help them grow their resource capacity.A nonprofit thought leader,Tim, is the author of the book,optimize Your Fundraising.Lead researcher and co-author of the online fundraising scorecard.Why should I give to you the nonprofit value proposition index study and the mid-level donor crisis?Tim has trained organizations in fundraising optimization around the world, and is a frequent speaker at international nonprofit conferences.Welcome to the show, Tim, and thanks so much for taking the time to share your story today.Stephanie, thanks for having me.So this is a, this is an interesting conversation because you are sort of right at that crosshairs where you are building a business for nonprofits.So, correct.Dive in.How did you get here?Yeah, I think like most people define themselves working in the nonprofit sector, I took a very indirect pathway here.So my story is I grew up in western Pennsylvania, just outside, outside of Pittsburgh.I was born and raised, went to college there, graduated right after nine 11,which was a really, really difficult time to enter into the business world, especially for somebody who desperately wanted to work in the field of advertising and marketing.But fortunately I worked at a country club all during high school and college.So I had 432 aunts and uncles that were captains of industry.And so when I needed a job, I just,you know, picked up the phone.I called Uncle Joe, right?So, so Joe Blatner was the president of the second largest ad agency in Pittsburgh.I went and met with him downtown.I did my little dog and pony show, and he is like, man, I'd love to hire you kid.But you know, we just laid off 30 people yesterday.I mean, nine 11 hit our industry hard,our agency harder, I can't help you.And so it was like the same thing, like six months of just like wandering the wilderness,having doors slammed to my face.I met a serial entrepreneur by the name of John Finau and John had a number of different businesses that he operated and he said maybe you could do some marketing stuff for these, you know, little companies.They operate.I said, well, that sounds great, John.And then he looked at me and he says, why don't you start a business?And I'm like, well, I don't know how to do that.He's like, well, I do.We've got an incubator on the second floor of our office building.I'll give you a desk.I'll introduce you to people.I'll be your, you know, partner,and the rest is up to you, kid.So I'm like kinda looking around,like, I'm thinking, man, I'm living in my parents' basement.I've got like literally zero overhead.I had not met my Tobe wife yet.And so I was like, yeah,well let's go for it.So I started a, a company called Ambience Marketing Services.And in the early days of that, it was basically we would do any sort of marketing project that would pay money.Obviously that was legal, of course.So I had all this like video equipment and we'd shoot like corporate videos and then we started making like TV commercials for car dealers and then started building websites.And this is back like pre WordPress days.So you'd build like a $5,000 website and then build like a $10,000 content management system on the backend of that.So I did that for a number of years.Actually probably about five years into it, I had the opportunity to work with a nonprofit that was doing a capital campaign to build a new building.And it was the first time that I was doing something that I felt like I was wired to do, which is marketing, but doing it for a cause that I cared about.And so after getting bit by that bug,I was like, man, I can't go back and make car dealership websites anymore.So I had this crisis of career.What am I gonna do?Called up a friend of mine who had just made a bold career move himself.He was a certified financial planner,shut down his practice and went to go take the job as an executive vice president for a nonprofit.Down in South Florida.So I called him up and I think he knew I was up to, I was kinda like,Hey man, what's going on down there?He's like, dude should come check it out.You know, I just hired this guy, you totally love him.He's a, you know, m i t grad, legit rocket scientist.His last job was sending satellites into outer space and you know, I think he'd like really, You know, enjoy him.So I was like, cool.So I leave Pittsburgh, there's like six inches of snow on the ground.I get to Fort Lauderdale,Florida where the you know,the organization was located.And my, my interview's at this place called the Aruba Beach Cafe, which is like right on a one a avenue, right on the sand.The sliding glass doors are open, you know, the.Sea breeze is blowing through my hair and the guy's just like bling bling, bling bling bling.And I was just like I could get used to this.So, wait, can you do that again?How, how did it go blinging?It was like, you know,it was like the little,like the bling bling.So anyway, a long story short,in, in a matter of like 45days, I sold my little company.Company.We sold our house, moved from Pittsburgh,Pennsylvania to Fort Lauderdale, Florida.I went to work for this nonprofit the day I got there, the founder of the organization who had been there for 35 years, had a heart attack.Now, I should point out that correlation is not causation.At least I hope not.I hope I'm not the reason, but Anyway, we went from like a 36 million a year annual budget to 18 and less than 12 months.So it was like this death spiral we were in.I was hired to do digital communications and marketing.They, but they said, look, whatever you're doing on this internet stuff,figure out how that generates revenue.So that was my first violent shove into the world of fundraising.I did not like it.I thought it was like kind of a necessary evil, you know, the dark side of nonprofit work.And I, what I.Came to discover that is that that's actually not true in a way.Like fundraising is like a, it's, it's kinda like a ministry to people, right?Because you get to inspire people to look past their own wants, needs,interests and desires, and instead look to try to meet the needs, interests,wants and desires of other people.And like, when that happens, like it's a really, it's a miracle and it's beautiful.So anyway I know this story is dragging out, but anyway, the, there was a, there was a, an agency that we worked with.And I didn't, didn't even know these things existed.It was, it was a marketing agency that worked exclusively with nonprofits.It was called kma Direct Communications.They were based in Dallas.I got to know their c E O.And he said, look, you know, we've been doing like direct mail for 30 years.We're trying to move into this like digital world.Maybe you could help us come and start a digital fundraising division cuz I don't know what your future looks like here.And I said, that sounds great.I said, but I don't know fundraising.He's like, well we don't know digital so we can help each other.And that's how I got to Dallas in 2008.I was there for about a two and a half year cycle.We got acquired by another agency.I was there for another 18 months.And during that time I just became obsessed with trying to figure out how do we.Optimize fundraising, right?How do we actually like really use the web as a laboratory, not just as a communication channel and rigorously,scientifically test and figure out what works and what doesn't work.And that's ultimately what next after is today.So that was the long-winded way of describing how I got to the nonprofit space.So you, so let's dive into that just a little bit.So next, after evolved out of an opportunity.Mm-hmm.And is this a partner owned business?Is it just you?It was just me in the beginning.I have brought on partners over time 100%, like self-funded.So we have no debt, we have no investors.And we went from zero to 25 million in revenue over the last 10 years.And it's been like a, a series of twists and shares.I will tell you that, you know,leaving is like the hardest part,like, like launch that launch mode.And, and maybe this would be interesting for some of your listeners.When I worked at those two other agencies I, I.You know, I was younger, much more ambitious, and like I would just go and speak at all these conferences.So I was building like a personal brand and I realized at some point that the company needed me much more than I needed them.And that's a really great place to be in if you do have these entrepreneurial urgings inside of you.Because I, you know, ultimately then went to the, the company that acquired Kma and I said, look I'm gonna go leave and start my own consulting practice.And they said, okay, we would like to have you consult back with us for a year.I said, well, I will not give you a year.I'll give you six months.And then I said, also, I want you to pay me 93% of my salary for 50% of my time.And because I act.Actually had leverage in that situation.It was able to create a very easy,like runway to go launch a business because, you know, when I started this company next after, I mean, I had three kids and a mortgage, and car payments and all this overhead, and so, you know, that's, that's, that's always the scariest thing for most people.They have this idea of going and launching and creating a business.But like the fear of just like, you know,having to take on all that overhead and the potential for, you know, things to not go right and not be able to provide for your family can be pretty rough.So there's a bit of a, like a misnomer when we talk about not-for-profits or NGOs or, you know, those sort of impact organizations that they don't have money.And having sat on the board of a number of them It's just that they're not allowed to keep the profit.But these, these are well-funded organizations, aren't they?That's correct.Here in the US I believe it's a 472billion a year industry, nonprofits.Yeah.We employ 10% of the US workforce.So it is, it is a massive, massive space.And you're absolutely right.Yes.They can't have profits.And they aren't distributed to shareholders.But there are billion dollar nonprofits that exist out there.They're legitimate businesses.Mm-hmm.That's right.And you need to run it like a business.Mm-hmm.And, and the, the maximization of what you do with your money is the same thing as maximizing revenue.It just means that you're able to.Expand your operations and your reach, right?That's correct.That's correct.And really the, the ultimate like,you know, measure of success is not necessarily did the stock price go up, it's the measure is like, have we created the social impact in the area that we're really focused, right?Are we actually solving cancer?Are we feeding people?Are we like, you know, just putting shelter for the homeless?I mean like, are we doing things that are making the world a better place?And it's, I mean, it's fun work.Does it change the work?Here's the way it changes Stephanie, and, and this, and you'll really appreciate this.There's a, there's a guy named Dan Pada and he did a TED Talk,probably about a, I don't know,probably a dozen or so years ago.And like, they're now releasing a documentary film that he created and he talks about some of the, just.Challenges in the nonprofit space,the glass ceilings that we have set up for people because we can't pay them what they're really worth, right?Because like, you know, people look at that as like, oh, you're paying these people too much.And so more of that money should be going to the cause.But the problem is if you don't go and pay for talent what they're worth, and you don't get the best talent to go solve some of the world's most pressing challenges.And so I always like, you know, one of his arguments he makes, he said, look, let's pretend that we have two organizations.One is a hundred million annual budget.One is a $1 million annual budget.They are both solving cancer, right?They're both working on the same exact cost.The $1 million organization has a 99% efficiency rate, which means 99 cents out of a dollar goes directly to cancer research.The other group that's a hundred million dollar annual budget has a 50% like efficiency index.Which one is actually creating more impact?Well, the one that's a million dollar organization has $999,000 of impact.The other one has 50 million, right?If we really wanna solve cancer, we have to be willing to invest in that, and that's something that I think is just, you know, I think donors are starting to see that and starting to change their opinion.Yeah, super interesting that you say that because, you know, I've, not, not that I've spent a lot of time working in the nonprofit space, well, as a volunteer and,and that sort of thing and, and on boards,but I would say that I sort of wish a lot of public sector organizations would think that way as well because mm-hmm.You know, they, they sort of, they're,they're under pressure to be good custodians of taxpayer dollars and,and you know, I'm working with one right now where they can't pay.The talent, what the talent is worth.And so they keep losing talent, right?They'll, they'll bring them up,they'll invest in them, they'll train them, and then they go, because they can make understandably, right?And so that same logic applies I think also in in public sector.If you realign your investments with the impact that you can make or you know, and maybe it's a different story, but I think that's a really,a really crucial understanding that a lot like the general public and donors need to have.Well, I mean, we don't scrutinize the excessive like investment and growth of like Amazon or Google or fa, you know what I mean?Like, those people spend massive amounts of money on, you know, what's considered overhead or things like that, but they're not being scrutinized,so it's like, it's kind of weird.There's like, there's.There's the nonprofit space that's being kept down because they have these artificial kind of you know, ceilings that are being created for them, and then the for-profit space are free to go and invest and grow and, you know,really make as much money as they can.So it's and again, I'm not like, I'm not like, I, I don't have any sort of ill will towards for-profit businesses.I am one.But I just, I do see that that's a limitation that keeps a lot of nonprofit spaces you know, just tamped down a bit.And, and so that's an interesting comment that you made because do you feel or find that in your own marketing you need to be a little bit careful because as an organization that's serving, I know that I know that there's this perception of anybody serving a non-for-profit that they shouldn't be charging that much, or they shouldn't be really asking to be paid for their services.Yeah.So does it change your own messaging, your own branding?No, and I'll tell you why.Because like, if we don't have profits, then we can't do some of the good things that we do.So I, I'll give you some examples.So number one we give back 10% of our,of our top line profits, operating profit directly back to nonprofit organizations.So like, I think last year that was like about $450,000that we donated to nonprofits.We empower our staff to be able to choose the organizations that they want to go give that money to.So we're trying to train them to be philanthropists, right?And to give away that money.We also try to really take good care of our employees, right?So we take 27% of our total operating profit and we distribute it back to our employees in the form of a profit share plan.We feed them every day.I mean, like, we try to really take good.Care you know, we have great benefits.We pay a hundred percent of all healthcare and stuff, which I know isn't that big a deal in, in Canada,but it is a big deal in the US because that expense gets pretty high.But, you know, we're just trying to be good stewards of what we have.And if we don't have the profits,we can't do any of those things.Where can I apply?I think I wanna come and work with you.If you, I, you had me at snacks.So who's, who's the ideal client for you?Who, who are you typically working with?Yeah, so we really focus on like the upper three and a half percent of the nonprofit market.So very large organizations.And the reason why is part of our methodology is running these like online ab tests and multivariate tests and experiments.And in order to validate, statistically validate the results of those experiments,we need to have significant volume.So we're really confined to that.You know, again, upper three and a half percent, so that would be a nonprofit organization that's.10 million in, up in revenue.But then we take what we learn from the big organizations and then we try to make those learnings accessible to all nonprofits.And so that's kind of like the second level of our company, which we call the next after institute.So we take what we learn from research,from testing, from experimentation, we distill it down into various different free resources, templates, guides, eBooks.We have nine different certification courses.We host conferences.We do all kinds of things to really try to upscale the people that are working in the space because honestly, and this sounds so crazy, digital is still kind of like a frontier in the nonprofit space.We're very woefully behind where for-profit businesses are, and we feel like it's our mission to change that.Yeah, I have a, I had a client who was in Florida in Miami, and she was building a digital agency there, and she actually found that the work that she did with not-for-profits was her highest growth because there was such a gap, right?Mm-hmm.That's right.Exactly.And, and so what are, do you think that these not-for-profits,these NGOs are getting more savvy?Oh, most certainly.Absolutely.The, the problem is, is like there's a huge gap between that,like upper three and a half percent in the rest of the market, right.And there's a couple reasons for that, I think.The first one is this.There's, there's very little consolidation in the non-profit space, right?And what I mean by that is like in the for-profit space, There's lots of roll-ups that happen.There's companies that acquire other companies to kind of get a, to be, you know, to be bigger, have more market share, have more customers, have more revenue, have higher valuations.There isn't the same incentive for nonprofits to do that same kind of thing.So what happens is you have many, many organizations that are all doing the same thing and they are just basically diluting the market share for that.Right?I mean, so Because for a nonprofit organization to basically, you know,merge or be acquired, the acquired agency organization has to basically turn over all their assets to the acquiring agency.Their board has to vote themselves out of existence, and then they cease to be.And you have to be pretty sold out to a cause to do that.As much as everyone says how much they love what they're trying to do and they're changing the world,they also like a paycheck, right?And they also love their job.And so this is where it gets a little bit tougher.Nonprofits to really I guess, you know, consolidate.Is that a thing, MNAs in the nonprofit space?It does.It happens.It's very rare.I've been involved in several organizations that have gone through that process.And it is, it's, it's just it's,it's really hard because again,like if I'm an organization that is feeding the homeless and this.This, this market.And then there's another one that does it in this other market.We know that we can actually reduce our overhead costs.We can actually centralize operations and just have two separate teams or whatever.Well, you know, then this one board doesn't exist anymore.They're like, wait a second.I thought I was making a, a, an a difference in my community,and now I'm, I'm ceasing to be.So there's, there's, there's conflicting incentives, I'd say.And are you marketing most, mostly to donors?We are, yeah.So my company really works at the retail level of fundraising, so that would be like the sub $1,000, you know, giver.And we're trying to help organizations accumulate mass, right?So we're trying to help them to get to scale.And the reason why that's important is because of lifetime value.So a donor that gives, you know,just whatever, 25, $50 a year.Over time, they become more and more valuable to the organization.There's data that proves that many of those people become mid-level donors,major donors, and sometimes even legacy donors, where they actually give an estate gift, which can be, you know, worth,you know, 6, 7, 8 figures in some cases.Yeah, it's super interesting because,you know, we're, we're so used to thinking about, you know, consumer based marketing, but isn't it much the same thing?It is and it isn't.And I'll give you a couple ways that it's different.Number one as a nonprofit organization I don't have a fixed price.Think about that, right?So my customer determines the price.The donor decides how much they're gonna give.So when it comes to influencing my, you know, average order value, I have to do that through tapping into somebody's heart, their mind, and their, you know, ultimately their wallet, right?So we spend a lot of time really trying to help organizations work on their value proposition.Which for many you know, many CEOs of nonprofit organizations, I say,Hey, you know, what's, what's your,what's your value proposition?And they'll start going on and on about like their mission and their values and what they do and all that stuff.And I said, that's all great.That's not a value proposition.Here's your value proposition.It's the answer to this question.If I am your I yield donor, why do I give my money to you rather than some other organization or not at all?And then they freeze and they're like and I was like, exactly right.So like we need to go and figure out what is the answer to that question.And we can't frame it from internal logic, like organizational logic.We have to frame it from the perspective of our customer, which is the donor.And that's where the research and testing becomes incredibly value.I can test all these value propositions.I can learn based off the behavior of the donor.Like, do they respond?What's the conversion rate?What's the average gift amount?And that helps influence whether or not my hypothesis is correct or if it's invalidated.So we all buy based on emotion, right?Mm-hmm.Whether we're buying a consumer good or whether we're donating our money or our time, or whatever it is.Do you, do you, you've worked in marketing mm-hmm.On both sides.Do you think that your tactics, your strategies, what you're, what you're, you know, utilizing the tools, do they change in a really kind of values-based industry?No, not, not, not necessarily.I mean, like, we're, we're doing a lot of the same, so, you know,we're doing a lot of the same kind of things that like a B2B company would do and a B2C company would do.So b2b, it's all about lead gen, right?Let's go acquire leads and leads and leads and leads.So we do a ton of that stuff for our clients.So we'll say, okay, cool.What's your mission?Well, we're we are a policy, like I'm, I'm at the Heritage Foundation.It's a policy think tank in Washington,DC and they produce all these different policy things of like, you know, Things to go and, you know, fix problems in society.And so we'll take that stuff.We're like, okay, cool.This is a 342 page like policy document.N nobody's gonna read that, right?So we go take it and like turn it into like a six page ebook of like, here's how we can go solve this problem.Here's how we can go solve this problem.And then we actively market that.We'll go put Facebook ads out there, or like display ads or Google search engine marketing for people that are looking for that stuff.And then when somebody signs up to receive that offer, we have their name,we have their contact information, and then immediately after they request that resource, we say, Hey, thank you so much.Your eBooks gonna be in the inbox shortly, but while I have you, let me tell you how you can help us,you know, change the world, right?And then we go into this pitch.And what we find is between two and upwards of 20% of people will instantly give a gift.The 80 to 98% that don't give a gift,I have their email address wi for those people, and then I can cultivate them over time to become donors.So it's a very B2B and B2C kind of tactic.Now one of the things that I have seen happen with with businesses that actually serve a, like a values-based industry is that there will be clients who actually don't align with your values.Mm-hmm.And, and you know, have you had the occasion where that ha you've actually had to turn away a client?Have we had to turn away a client?Yeah.I'm trying to think of an instance we've had to turn away clients that like weren't good clients.Like they, they weren't playing ball, they weren't doing this thing.But you're, you're right.No, there is.And actually You know, there's lots of ideological nonprofit organizations.There's religiously AFI affiliated nonprofit organizations that are very politically focused on nonprofit organizations and those various different pockets of people generally, you know, they're in,you're in one camp or the other.Right?Because like in some cases, like it's the same issue, but there's one organization that's it's for it and the other one's against it.So yes, there is, you know, there is that kind of like, you know,segmentation of the market for sure.Yeah.And I always wondered like if, if a,if a service provider inside that, that industry, I mean, could you serve, I know you technically could, but could you serve, and would that be good for your business to serve both organizations on?Oh, absolutely not.It would be unethical and it would be a conflict of interest.That's kind of like if I'm a general market ad agency, if I have Coke,I can't work with Pepsi, right?Mm-hmm.I mean, like Pepsi is the enemy.Mm-hmm.So I think what happens is like if you do have clients that are in a certain sphere, then it kind of acts as a natural, you know, kind of insulator to, you know, working with organizations on the other side of that.Like, they don't wanna work with you and, and you probably don't wanna work with them, I guess.Yeah.Yeah.What has growth meant to you?I mean, what's been working for you?What has growth meant for us?So the, the biggest thing I think is about three and a half years ago, we made the decision to bring media buying in-house.Up until that point we were really more of a consulting, like, kind of agency creative shop, and we were like, you know, executing campaigns,but all the media buying was flowing through a media buying partner.We made the decision to bring that in-house and that has scaled tremendously.I think now media is probably over 50% of our revenue.And that's opened up a whole new, you know, realm of opportunity for us,mainly because it doesn't require as much additional staff to scale that.Right.I don't need to go hire a whole new account team because we just onboarded two new clients.Right,right.And in terms of, you know,growth prior to your, your media team, what was working for you?Mm-hmm.Is this a referrals based business?At what?Was there an inflection point at which business development started to get easier?From the very beginning, like I've been a huge believer in content marketing and there's two different ways you can do content marketing.There's the contrived way where you're kind of like, you know, basically it's a thinly veiled sales pitch, or I.You go give away all your best stuff,you give away all your secrets.Like you just kinda like, basically like say, you know, open up the kimono and say, look, here it is, I'm gonna go give you all the best stuff.We've taken the, that, that approach where we actually really try to give away our best thing today.And what we've found is a couple things.Number one, I.It puts positive pressure on our team to come up with something new tomorrow, right?So if everybody has it, all my competitors have it, even our prospects have it.Like then if they have this information,then it's gonna make us have to continue to be innovative, which is something that I value tremendously.Number two.When you actually really give away good stuff, you build goodwill with people in the marketplace.I can't tell you how many referrals I've gotten from people that have never been our clients, but they're like, you know, talking to somebody and they're like, oh, we need to find a new digital fundraising agency.Oh dude, just go check out the next after folks.They're awesome, blah, blah, blah.I downloaded one of their eBooks.And so what we found is like that, you know, that approach of actually like giving away really valuable, high valuable value, you content comes back to you.Tremendously.So most of our business is inbound at this point.Was there ever a temptation to kind of, you know, scurry over to the, the not not-for-profit sector and build out part of the business to serve for-profit?It's a question we've been asked many times.I I just think that like, this space is big enough and you know, there's,there's still so much that we can do here that I, I don't really feel like the need to spread ourselves thin.I.I could see that there would be positive advantages to that because we could learn some things on the for-profit side that we could bro bring over the nonprofit and vice versa.But one of the ways we try to do that is we host a conference every year called the Nonprofit Innovation and Optimization Summit.It moves from city to city every year.I mean, we usually have about a thousand attendees.And all the speakers for the most part.I'd say probably about 75, 80%of the speakers come from the for-profit digital marketing space.And we're trying to get the best and brightest minds bring 'em together for a couple days to pour into our nonprofit community, to give us those new insights, those new ideas, those new innovations that we can test to hopefully reach our next breakthrough.And so you're really seen as a bit of a leader and an innovator in the non-for-profit space?I think so.I, I think so.I mean, we're also kind of like what's, what's the word?We we constantly use virtuously irreverence, right?So like, we kind of like poke fun at a lot of the, you know, the, the long held kind of sacred cows in our space.And we're trying to expose that because like, you know, We believe that we need to give back to basics.In some cases, like people give to people not to email machines, not to websites, not to organizations.People give to people.So if we can humanize our communications and actually like be more genuine,instead of like writing with like this God voice of like, here ye here, ye thou duff, now shove, give us to me.You know?Like nobody speaks like that.And yet that's how a lot of nonprofits market because they're, you know I don't know, ingrained or, it's just, it's something that they've done forever and it just doesn't work anymore.And so you'd prefer to be the disruptors?Very much so.Very much so.Wait, wait till I show you my Super Bowl ad that we created.So, I dunno, remember the Bud Light commercial, the real Men of Genius or Real American heroes?I dunno if they had those in Canada or not, but they anyway.Oh, it's, it's, it's a,it's a parody of that.It's, it's pretty brilliant.I'm, I'm really excited about it.I honestly think, I used to pay a lot of attention to the ad space cuz back in the day when I was young,that's what I really wanted to do.And somehow I ended up in technology.But I I remember that like watching the, some of the awards that that would, you know, when you'd have the awards shows and honestly, some of the not-for-profit advertising was some of the most brilliant and creative that I, I saw across the board.Because I think that there's a lot, you know, there's a lot you can play with and there's a lot of opportunity for disruption because it, you're, you're right, it has typically been quite,you know, safe and formulaic, and now we get to be creative if you have the vision from the organization, right.Exactly.And you know, the advance that, you know, advances in technology now enable us to be able to go and do like more traditional brand advertising, which we haven't been able to do in the past.And what I mean by that is like connected tv.Like the emergence of connected TV is like something I am so excited about because like, you know, 80 T million TV households,now I can go reach that person.I can go reach that donor or somebody that I've modeled using data to look like my donor and I don't have to go and buy like ad parts and day parts and ins and outs of shows or whatever.And you know, waste a lot of my marketing, I can actually really have very focus advertising.So that's kind of the future we think is really trying to get more nonprofits to do more of this programmatic advertising where you're taking advantage of you know, targeted ads like you would do on Facebook, but through the entire open internet into channels like podcasts and TV and radio and all those other things.Yeah,for sure.I think podcasting on its own is, is such a huge growth opportunity for advertisers and we're just seeing them start to scratch the surface because all of these shows are, are so super targeted.Mm-hmm.And they have a very understandable demographic and personalities that people get really sort of committed to and connected to.So I think it's a, I think we'll see a lot of growth and innovation in that space in the next few years.Agreed.If I were someone who was considering starting up a, a service business or a product in this within the not-for-profit space or serving the not-for-profit space, what would you tell me?Well, I mean, it is very much a herd based mentality or industry.So what, what I mean is like if you can go and find one of, or two of the herd leaders and bring them on as a, as a customer early,then that really goes a long way.I was blessed because I worked at these two other agencies and I had all these,you know, really great relationships with some of these large non-profits.So when I kind of put up my shingle, they're like, okay,well, we'll give you a shot.And, you know, that became like my featured case study.And then I'd go and shop that around and it opened up more and more and more doors.So that would be number one.Number two, I'd say it's a very, and something I don't like, but it's, it's true.It's a very guru driven industry.And so if you can kind of link up with one of those gurus that can open doors for you.I had one, I had like a silent partner in the early stages of my company that would, you know,basically give me that credibility.I needed to have the conversation.And then once I had the conversation,then, you know, I'm kind of on my own to stand on my own two feet.And when it comes to execution, obviously that's where the rubber meets the road.But if you can, that can, you know, be that door opener, that's, I mean, that would be worth its weight and whatever.Consulting fee you could pay there and now you're your own hashtag influencer, right?Oh, I don't know about that.So what's the future?I mean, where, where are you going next with the business?Adtech.So the thing that's really helped all of our clients, it, you know,if I, if I boil it down, it's their ability to efficiently spend media,to acquire new donors, retain donors,and help grow their revenue capacity.So we have over the last several years have been building a marketing data warehouse.We created a business you know, Business intelligence dashboards tool on top of that.But now the next step is like, let's go connect it to an endpoint, which is like a demand side platform where we can actually go use this first party data, which nonprofits have tons of first party data.Model that, and then go connect it to these various different advertising sources that are outside of the walled gardens of Facebook and Google, which kind of dominates the market today.Do you find you have to.Sell that hard.Is that an easy sell in with your clients or do you have some fairly visionary clients who are on board?I think I think.Some of our clients, yes,are totally on board.I think others like, we have to change the vernacular.Like if I say like, you know, D M P C D P D S P, they don't know what any of those things are.And, and nor do they think they need them and nor could they afford them if they had to go buy each any one of those,you know technologies on their own.So what we have to do is kind of put it in their language.So like this is a system that enables you to take your donor data.And be able to go create lookalikes just like you did in Facebook, right?And then you can do like these five different things.You can go acquire new donors, you can retain existing donors, you can grow your existing donors or you can reactivate lap donors or you can just promote something that you're trying to get out there.I, I think it's just like, if we kind of communicate it like really simply and make the, you know, the,the technology not as complex, I think that it has huge potential.Well, and that's always gonna be the role of the innovator, right?Is to bridge that gap between what you, what you know, what you know in, in your expertise or, and, and your, your sort of value proposition around that bleeding edge and, What the business is focused on achieving.Right.And, and you're that go-between, so you really are that, that innovator sort of concierge, aren't you The translator of the organization.I have to go ha.Communicate in the language of the customer.And sometimes that's hard because I'm not the customer.We, I do a lot of innovation strategy with my clients, and that's one of the, the words I use all the time is this concierge.There always needs to be that sort of role that walks these disruptions over to the sort of production team and the sustainability team and.Translates the value from the disruptive prototype into something that can be consumed within the organization and sustained within the organization, and maintains enough of that, you know, that value.But also is, is something that can be adopted, right?So it's always.It's like that, that sort of translator,hand holder guide, whatever that role may be.Yeah, the Sherpa, right?Yeah, the Sherpa.I have a question I ask.Mm-hmm.All of my guests, and I would be really curious to hear your answer to it as well.What's the difference between what we hear out there in the business world,the online business world, and what's real about being a business owner?Oh, it's it's lonely.I mean, like, that's like, that's the number one thing for sure.I mean it's cliche, but you know, it is lonely at the top.And I even have business partners,but still, like, it's kind of like, it's hard to find peers.So, you know, I've I.You know, all of my best friends,they all live in different cities because they all are CEOs of companies and like, you know, we relate on a level that I can't relate with my,my existing partners, my own staff,or even just like my ne my neighbors.So I think that that's something that.A lot of people that go into the space don't realize, they're just like, oh, I got the corner office.I'm like, yeah, it's pretty,it's pretty lonely there.But you know, there's peer advisory groups I've discovered, you know, like c e o,peer advisory groups, which are awesome.You know, kind of like once a month you get together and you kind of like, I.You know, 11 other people, they're sitting in the same seat and y'all kind of like, share your problems.Just like, okay, I don't feel that alone anymore.And I'm getting insights,I'm getting challenged.I'm getting, you know, all the things that I need.Because honestly, I mean, I don't, we don't have a, an official board and I own the majority of the company, so I have like the ultimate Trump card.So like, who's holding me accountable?Right?I mean, that's a scary place to be as well.So it's just things like that, that you don't think about until you kind of find yourself in that situation.Yeah.And that's why these, these groups exist and why they're so popular.And some of them are hit and miss for sure, but you know, the, the,the feeling of normalization that all these things that we're dealing with as business owners are the same as others.You know, maybe we don't have the solution, but we know that we're not the only ones.Right.Yeah.I think there's, that's right.There's an incredible power to that for sure.And you just have to find your people.That's right.And it's a high degree of responsibility that we carry that I don't think anyone that hasn't experienced that can really relate to.Does that make sense?I mean, you, you totally get it right.So I mean, a hundred percent it's, yeah.And it's, it's, it's just, it's really hard to articulate even.But it's like I'm jumping out of the airplane and I don't have a shoot yet.But I'm pretty sure I can build one before it gets to the ground.Right.But come with me.Follow me out.Yeah.You know, it'll be a little bit, it's gonna be awesome.You're gonna love it.I'm gonna splat first, but I think it, I think there's this, there's like a, a personal responsibility.There's a fiscal responsibility,even solo entrepreneurs that are just kind of doing it on their own.Every day you wake up and you think, oh gosh.You know, my family depends on me.And I, you know, as a sole breadwinner for my family, I started my first business when I was eight months pregnant with my first kid.Like, wow, great timing, right?But yeah, we all, we all have that, that feeling and, and though it never goes away, it's always nice to be around people who could be copacetic, who can, you know.Yes, empathize.That's why I brought on partners honestly, cuz like I, that when I was the solo entrepreneur, I was just like, I can't do this anymore.So that was, it's a lot less.It is a lot.It's when, when did you bring on partners?I, I brought on my first partner probably about 18 months into it.So I made it about a year and a half, so not very long.Yeah, I get it.I get it.And especially with the growth that you've seen, that that can be kind of critical to keeping you going.We're up, we're up against time.Can you let our listeners how they can find you or let them know how they can find you?I can't even speak today.Well, if you can spell Kachuriak,which you can't, if you Google that, then I sh I'll, I'll show up.Pretty much.I'm the only result.So like, there's not a lot of kachuriak, I don't think.But that's too hard.Just go to next after.com.All of our research, all of our testing stuff, all the resources and stuff that I mentioned are there.You can go check that out.Awesome.We'll put all the links in the show notes and, and everything so that people can find you.But I think it would be really great for them to connect with you, see what you're doing, and you know, even though it's in the not-for-profit space, you're running a legitimate for-profit business.So I think that I li I like sort of the, the kind of the tension there and.You know, hearing your story as to how you figured it out.So we're gonna wrap it up because we are coming up on time, but I'm so happy that we had the opportunity to chat with Tim today to hear more about how his business came to be, his experiences along the way, and what the future of the business entails.And thanks for tuning into this episode of The Real People Real Business Show,where we get the real entrepreneurial stories and journeys that you can relate to the show notes, resources, and links from this episode are available on my website and social media platforms.If you've enjoyed today's content, I would love for.Free to give us a review in whatever platform you're on to help us share these genuine stories with an even bigger audience.Until next time, keep building,keep dreaming and keep being real.